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Post by ThaiGyro on Aug 24, 2017 6:30:13 GMT -5
I have not done too many new topics, but this one deserves attention from my view.
There is an effort or maybe more than one, to better utilize 2 stroke technology. That is: Combustion Ignition! For your brain to absorb...that means someone is taking an old theory and making it better! Combustion ignition is what two-stroke diesels have used for a very long time...
There are many here in Thai, but not environmentally friendly. The idea is sound however. The issue being bad fuel burn upon deceleration or improper fuel delivery at any time from in-efficient (mechanical) pumps.
We all know that 2 strokes can make better power at any given displacement, but at what cost? Economy and environmental spew are the biggest issues. Combustion ignition means that the temperature, based on higher compression "Creates" the ignition. The idea is way old, but getting it environmentally/power/fuel cost friendly is a tougher road.
Suzuki has an effort to explore both hp and ecological possibilities. I like the idea. I am not sure what the real potential is...likely less than petrol/gasoline, but the real result would be in lubrication...and friction technology advances. Nicasil needs, for example, require less fuel oiling. Direct injection has a similar effect. (Cooling plus lubrication) Maybe the net result is 2 strokes with fancy injection/exhaust....and port timing. This should all sound familiar, but with different dimensions.
I was lucky to know an engineer working on horizontally opposed, bi-directional cylinder combustion. Meaning that it was a two-stroke with two-cycles per rotation...doubling effective combustion. Bi-directional burn, in opposite strokes. Designed for diesel...who cares? Diesel would be great for a scoot!
Maybe Suzuki is doing a single cylinder design of this idea? IT would mean separate crankcase ports with opposing pressure waves. Cool shit! It does not mean longer-wider stoke/bore...it does mean serious crank/case doings and double injection, double exhaust.
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Post by knobby on Sept 6, 2017 12:19:09 GMT -5
Diesel is tough to miniaturize.. direct injection gasoline components too. The army here tried for years to get somebody to build them a diesel full size motorcycle. Nobody ever really came up with anything that was good. And now you're talking ten times smaller an engine in a scooter. Which is ten times as difficult. The components are heavy so the engines are heavy per horsepower they produce.
Can-am has direct injection 600 and 800cc gas snowmobile 2stroke engines. The DI seems to have reduced oil consumption and fuel consumption below anything else. Will those components scale to scooter size/price lvl? Yes eventually. It may be too late by that point to see anything get to production. 4t's are really good these days. And even 4t's are now being displaced by electric vehicles..
Somebody needs to figure out an elegant way to completely seal the 2t lubrication system from the fuel. That would be a good first step to get 2 strokes wider acceptance. Once that is solved, they can start worrying about the fuel control part of the problem. But you start adding piston rods or other big reciprocating bits to a 2t, they get to the size/weight where you have eliminated any advantage to your design compared to a plain Jane 4t. The solutions have got to be elegant otherwise there is no point.
Suzuki isn't the only one looking at 2t dev. I think all the big guys are off and on doing R&D. The first place any worthy design will show up in the market place is the marine/snowmobile arena.. then from there it will trickle down to the smaller stuff. Scooters is the last place new tech will show up because of size/price limitations.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 12:59:09 GMT -5
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Post by jeff84 on Sept 6, 2017 15:41:49 GMT -5
I saw a homemade diesel motorcycle once. but the engine was used to power hydraulic pumps which in turn powered the drive wheels. yes it was a dually. and both the front and rear were powered. looked really heavy and impractical, but it supposedly was very efficient.
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Post by ThaiGyro on Sept 7, 2017 0:37:01 GMT -5
I agree knobby...it seems as bicycles get better tech than even motorcycles...I enjoy the engine studies, as the possibilities are more interesting.
I am not a fan of electric tech in cars. May be more energy efficient in terms of power output, but on the consumption end, 100% electric is a horrible use of generated power, IMO. Depending on where you live, many "hybrids" are not as economical as small diesels engines. A diesel hybrid may be better. Hydrogen engines?
When I lived in NorCal, we were paying 15 cents per KW-hour for baseline use...that was 2004. Above "lifeline" usage, was up to 27 cents for residents.
The future would mean more nuclear power plants everywhere.
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Post by bendover on Sept 16, 2017 14:22:04 GMT -5
U.S. Military have/are developing diesel motorcycles. Not because they are better, but because they run on the same fuel as everything else they use - diesel.
New ICE tech is going to be a niche market. Most of research/development budgets are focused on electric. I know most here are ICE fans, and we can't deny that electric is the path we are heading. A brand new ICE engine hot from RND will cost a lot, while you can get a 50/125cc mass produced engine for peanuts, tune the shit out of it for some more peanuts. If you have the money to spend on that prototype ICE engine, odds are you will get a lot better result from same investment going electric - 30hp peak with absurd torque at same or lower system weight than a 50cc 4hp engine.
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Post by ThaiGyro on Sept 17, 2017 0:01:39 GMT -5
I should clear up one thing here...not all research on combustion ignition is for diesel only. Much is diesel based fuels, but not 100%. Diesel is has low auto-ignition temperatures, but is also low volatility. One of the reasons that is is higher in emissions. I believe that Suzuki and Mazda...and it appears many others are doing research in different paths. Mixtures of diesels and other fuels, like gasoline, or creating more hydrogen rich diesel, while expensive produces better combustion. I found some data from Sandia National Labs in California, which shows some progress. They are specifically looking for alternative mixes for low emission, by testing diesel, gasoline, ethanol, natural gas and a few more. Equal power by using timing events for injection closer to combustion events, but much lower NOX and soot generation. I have followed a Michigan company that has produced 2 stroke diesel tecnology called OPOC, or "opposed piston-opposed cylinder", which is a 2T with two horizontally opposed cylinders like BMW or VW, but with 4 pistons. The firing event of one forces the compression of the opposed gas charge. Two strokes per rev, but higher compression and less emissions.   I can see this in a bike frame, if built very small. Their site seems to be not working, for some reason, but I recall half the size of todays diesels, near double the power. |
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Post by knobby on Sept 25, 2017 17:02:21 GMT -5
If you have the money to spend on that prototype ICE engine, odds are you will get a lot better result from same investment going electric - 30hp peak with absurd torque at same or lower system weight than a 50cc 4hp engine. The only reason pure electric cars are competitive today is regulations. Taxpayer funded rebate checks, industry CAFE standards, etc. The motors are great, but the batteries are hideously expensive to build. Both expensive as in money and as in natural resources. And batteries are temperamental, you need a (again expensive) sophisticated electronics package to manage the pack. Too much current in or out and you will destroy or prematurely age the cells. What does a gasoline compact car go for these days $15k? Now go price out an electric compact BEFORE rebates.. Then you got to remember you're charging it with coal/oil when you plug in. Don't get me wrong, electric cars are great. I'd have one for commuting, but you can't ignore the true expense just because the end consumer doesn't pay it. And recycling these newer chemistry battery packs... we better get that shit together fast because otherwise tons of toxins will be released into our world. I mean really, tons and tons, because its a lot of cars we are talking about. Dump an old 1988 chevy down by the river, no harm no foul. But if you get folks doing that with exotic heavy metals inside these battery packs.. what then? |
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Post by knobby on Sept 25, 2017 17:09:35 GMT -5
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Post by benji on Sept 25, 2017 20:23:25 GMT -5
If you have the money to spend on that prototype ICE engine, odds are you will get a lot better result from same investment going electric - 30hp peak with absurd torque at same or lower system weight than a 50cc 4hp engine. The only reason pure electric cars are competitive today is regulations. Taxpayer funded rebate checks, industry CAFE standards, etc. The motors are great, but the batteries are hideously expensive to build. Both expensive as in money and as in natural resources. And batteries are temperamental, you need a (again expensive) sophisticated electronics package to manage the pack. Too much current in or out and you will destroy or prematurely age the cells. What does a gasoline compact car go for these days $15k? Now go price out an electric compact BEFORE rebates.. Then you got to remember you're charging it with coal/oil when you plug in. Don't get me wrong, electric cars are great. I'd have one for commuting, but you can't ignore the true expense just because the end consumer doesn't pay it. And recycling these newer chemistry battery packs... we better get that shit together fast because otherwise tons of toxins will be released into our world. I mean really, tons and tons, because its a lot of cars we are talking about. Dump an old 1988 chevy down by the river, no harm no foul. But if you get folks doing that with exotic heavy metals inside these battery packs.. what then? 1. Battery pack and electric storage/delivery technology has been repeatedly suppressed and fought against in our country because of how much money the gasolines powered auto industry makes. Pure facts. Just ask GM. 2. You guys are still burning coal to get electricity? What is this, the civil war era? We have one hydro electric dam over here, in snoqualmie, that is A HUNDRED YEARS OLD and its actually being relied upon LESS because the grid has become more efficient. They used to have 3 or 4 other hydroelectric pump houses down stream- all closed now, not needed. We don't even use coal when we barbeque. That shit causes cancer,bro. 3. "What does a gas compact cost these days, 15k?" Maybe used... New cars are ALL unaffordable because of our inflationary spending that rewards purchasing large gas powered vehicles vs. small electric scooters or commuter vehicles. Ever seen those mini flat bed trucks in Japan? Like little golf cart/dump trucks? Not street legal in america, anywhere. But buy a h2 and get a tax rebate big enough for a second h2. Makes sense. 4."Dump an old 88 Chevy down by the river, no harm no foul." Please no one do this, especially with mid eighties gm cars. That yellow plastic and red antifreeze is what's poisoning all the east coast's water ways right now, along with everything else dripping/rusting off those abandoned cars as well as the giant piles of industrial waste and garbage. BTW, all batteries can be recycled unless severely damaged. Or tossed down by the river. 5. If you like internal combustion so much, look into LPG. Way cleaner, more reliable, cheaper, and way more american made. |
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Post by knobby on Sept 26, 2017 15:19:55 GMT -5
1. Eh, I've been screwing around with EV components for over a decade.. I am intimately familiar with the technology. I have no agenda. I like everything with wheels, whatever the power source. Anyway, I call things how I see it. Like I said my next commuter will likely be an electric...
2. Yeah 'bro' America burns coal and oil to generate electricity. Us and plenty of others too.. unfortunately its not up to me, I'm not sure why you want to get froggy with me. Fact of life.
3. You can get a brand new compact car for $15k USD no problem where I live. I don't know where you are located but FYI I am in Compton, CA, USA. You can google prices and see for yourself if you like. Electrics are double the cost pre-rebates. Yeah you're preaching to the choir on vehicle weight. I have hope that people will come around to 2 wheel transport when grid lock spreads out from the city centers to take over all the suburbs. May take a while.. Yes I know what Kei Cars are, I have family overseas who daily them. Yes I know all about the 6000lbs+ GVWR tax rebate. I think we are both on the same page on all of this stuff.
4. It happens, cars get dumped. Not saying I do it, or endorse it. But I am thankful they do not have exotic materials like the new electrics do. My point is, we need to get our shit together to make sure 100% of this stuff gets recycled. Maybe the infrastructure is already in place? I hope so.
5. Speaking of LPG.. On my last forklift purchase I had a choice between battery or LPG power, easy choice.. LPG you can swap tanks in 2 minutes, no outlet or charge cable worries.. you can store for months/years without worrying about pack degradation, it will fire right up. Plus its cheaper to buy. Our oldest forklift is an LPG built in 1980, and it still runs.
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Post by knobby on Sept 28, 2017 11:45:52 GMT -5
If you really care about the world think about this comparison. Take a guy driving his 40mpg 2001 Toyota Echo that he bought new for $10k (yes seriously google it). He maintains it properly and drives it for 15+ years of life span.. This guy doesn't get a carpool lane green sticker, no state rebate, no federal rebate. But the guy who leases a brand new electric car every 30 months does get those things every damn time the trades up. Now looking at it from a ecological POV, which guy is putting more strain on the planet's resources? How many resources it takes to build a brand new car? Any car let alone an electric or hybrid one with a huge chemical power source? The price tag is a hint since the resources committed are almost directly proportional to the purchase price. There is a reason an electric car stickers for over $35k just for the lowliest one there is..
There are guy in $120k Telas getting those above benefits too.. while they cruise on the plebs. Think about how wrong that is. But anyways, I know which guy I want to be, not the guy in the ten year old echo. I want to be that guy in carpool lane cruising past everybody in the shiny new hip electric car.
Now tell me again how everything is conspired against electric cars.
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Post by benji on Sept 29, 2017 3:04:52 GMT -5
I'm not getting "froggy" with you, just pointing out the rarity of modern coal or oil fired power plants. If live in Compton your electricity probably comes from the grand coulee dam (in my state, and also very old).
Gm actively suppressed battery technology thru the 90s and 00s in an attempt at pushing off hybrid and electric vehicle sales. No rumour or 'conspiracy theory', just facts. When people say that battery tech 'isn't there yet' they just don't know what patent is owned by who. A perfect example of this is Gm-delphi magnaride, a feature on Cadillac suspensions in the late 90s. It involved hydraulic oil with microscopic metal fragments suspended in it, and an electrical charge would change its viscosity. This was a patent Gm bought in the 30s and sat on until the 90s, actively shutting down the factory it was invented and shoving it in a corner. Why? I'm guessing something about fluid dynamics and the application of energy through electrical stimulation of magnetically effected materials, possibly creating the beginnings to a new type of energy application.
Yes, all new electric cars, at least the few I know of available, are crazy expensive. But only because there new and rare still, and the market hasn't been allowed to chip away at that price yet. Nobody thinks electric scooters are practical either but there crazy popular in China and other parts of the world. When you break it down an electric car is a lot cheaper to build. And I don't know about cali but I'd imagine it's the same down there, were starting to get little shops doing conversions on old cars using all kinds of stuff- forklift motors, giant DC motors in hollowed out blocks etc, and don't forget about the current hybrids and the hacks that allow you to drive them for limited time on battery power only, I've done that to some 2nd Gen prius' (only done 2 tho, wiper stalk switch mod). We are not that far away from cheap commercially available electric vehicles that run on several small remotely charged capacitors imo.
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Post by ThaiGyro on Sept 29, 2017 5:07:47 GMT -5
Nobody thinks electric scooters are practical either but there crazy popular in China and other parts of the world. When you break it down an electric car is a lot cheaper to build. There is truth to "crazy" in China, but "popular" is a matter of provincial regulation or in many larger cities. Shenzhen, China is a good example. Scooters with combustion engines are not allowed, nor motorcycles. They too started with two-stroke bans, then due to crazy driving...accidents and deaths, banned big bikes. Later yet all 4T scooters were also banned due to excess pollution. WHAT? More than from cars? All taxi's have LPG or LNG. Bus's are electric or LPG. But regular cars can be anything. Near 12 million people. I cannot imagine that the China CPC really cares how much overall pollution they generate per person, compared to any other country. I have witnessed it's people's ignorance first hand. They are getting US tech help to make cleaner power plants, but what are they doing to educate their people? Here is a typical example that you would not see in the USA.: Chinese absolutely love "fresh air", (they do not have any) however, they will open up windows with the air conditioning on full cold or the heaters blasting in winter. Why? They pay nearly nothing per kWh. Only westerners have ever told them how stupid it is. They may not need more power plants...they need to stop doing crazy things. Lights like Vegas everywhere. Waste, corruption and pure ignorance. USA is now #2 in power generation, behind China...but we pay for it, and waste far, far less. The arguments related to what engine form has a worse carbon footprint? Gas versus diesel versus hybrid versus plug in...very hard to compare...it depends on many things, one of which is which State/Municipality are coal burners, hydro-electric, nuclear, wind and others. For my money...just enjoy the sound of internal combustion, high rpm power. Formula E is not appealing, at all. Possibly for Millennials or Gen Next and beyond. I see the potential, but don't enjoy the music of EEEEEEEEEE. |
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Post by knobby on Sept 29, 2017 17:29:52 GMT -5
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