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Post by ThaiGyro on Jun 19, 2018 3:23:39 GMT -5
I will say this again and again...using only your rear brake IS the problem...you are over heating and glazing it for sure. Classic problem, regardless of pad quality.
You will surely be both safer and have more reliable brakes if you can learn to use both front and rear for their intended purposes.
Brake tidbits: ~70% of your stopping power is front brake, meaning you need it, but only apply ~30%.
For street driving, learn to start stopping with the front by gently seating pads, with a quick follow step applying the rear, then equal pressure. Learning that makes it easy to modulate front or rear for your situation. (There are lots of situations)
We taught basic braking to many, many "Hot Shoe" racers. It made them better.
I do not now or ever had squeeky brakes. Fit the material for the intended purpose, or fix the rider for that purpose.
If you think that is crazy? We road raced in both dry and rain conditions until I was 50. Rain racing is simply a more technique in cornering and braking. Maybe softer pads.
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jun 19, 2018 10:21:35 GMT -5
I would have suggested applying the rear brake first, gently, to 'set' the front suspension by transferring some of the weight to the front wheel, and THEN applying the front brake as much as desired. That's how I have done it since the early 1970's. If you visit youtube, there is a series of videos describing safe riding, techniques, cornering, braking, and leaning. Really eye-opening. I still have problems relying on tire grip when I lean... and am still hesitant to lean as much as I should. I am chicken. But I can brake effectively. Try leading with the rear brake, setting your front suspension, the applying the front brake. Practice in a parking lot, coming to a stop as quickly as you can. You will be a LOT more capable of using the braking power that is there, and NOT surprised and afraid when some situation occurs where you MUST brake or be injured. Learn NOW while the lesson is cheap. My suggestion. tom
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Post by scooterted on Jun 19, 2018 11:04:58 GMT -5
Iirc. When i took my motorcycle safety class 10 years ago. We were instructed similarly to what grumpyunk said. Rear brake first, followed quickly by front brake, then releasing the rear brake just a tiny bit.
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Post by katt on Jun 22, 2018 2:47:33 GMT -5
Now days i stop on traffic light using engine braking combined with only rear brake and use front only when not enough braking distance left.
On emergency braking rear first followed by front brake.
Been at motorcycle license exam in DMV and got one of the answers to test questions read like this "one of major causes of motorcycle indecent is OVERusing (or over-pressing) the rear brake." does it make any sense?
Noticed that light rear brake pressure gives me some jerking (back and forth).
P.S. i want to upgrade to rear disk brake, i've seen some people do this on the right side (opposite of crankcase) wonder if someone done this?
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Post by tocoo on Jun 22, 2018 3:11:41 GMT -5
Now days i stop on traffic light using engine braking combined with only rear brake and use front only when not enough braking distance left.
On emergency braking rear first followed by front brake.
[/div][/quote] I do this too. Only the front break is dangerous, because too powerful. Only the rear brake is dangerous because very dull. SO I use both rear frist then front, but most of the time, I just decelerate and a bit of rear brake when I approach an intersection and nobody is behind me.
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Post by jackrides on Jun 22, 2018 3:41:37 GMT -5
Katt, take the MSF class. It's obvious you care about your riding, so go learn some facts backed up by decades of experience. If MSF isn't in your part of the world, find a class. Even some military bases will have classes that thry will open to the public.
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jun 22, 2018 14:03:16 GMT -5
Problem with using the rear brake firmly is skid control. If/when the rear wheel breaks free, and starts to skid due to excessive brake application is that you are out of control, steering wise. It's gonna go where it wants to go, and you are along for the ride(bumpy.) That is what I was told about rear brake use. Use some, but not a lot, unless it can keep you from running into the south end of a northbound bus.(whatever) Better to be prepared, and not have to use them much at all.
The reason for using the front brake is the transfer of mass as brakes are applied which will/should increase the pressure of the tire on the ground, and improve traction. It is VERY difficult for one to apply the front brakes strongly enough that you'd take a flyer over the handlebar. Just doesn't happen, to my knowledge. But, again, better to be watching out for people to do foolish things, and put you into a touchy situation. You can help yourself a lot by never having the need to "lock 'em down". Rear disk brakes are a waste of money. The drum brakes should have more than enough capability to stop, and 999 times out of 1000 you will be able to skid the rear wheel with drum brakes just the same as with disk. Disk brakes on these machines are for 'looks', as you'll never be in a situation where the drum brakes come close to overheating unless you are coming down a steep mountain road in Death Valley. I think it almost impossible to overheat any scoot brake system in normal use. Could be I am full of beans... tom
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Post by greginisn on Jun 23, 2018 1:55:52 GMT -5
To get all nerdy and techie about this, What happens when rear brakes lock up is that those tires actually accelerate and are moving faster than the front tires. Even tho they are not turning. Cars and cycles are the same in this respect. If you have access to a hot wheels type vehicle you can prove it easily by putting a toothpick thru the rear wheel holes so they can't turn then scoot it along a smooth hard surface and it will soon be going rear end first.
I had a traffic light change unexpectedly on me a few days ago and I just grabbed a double handful of brakes and came to a quick controlled stop. I didn't think front or rear cuz there wasn't time enough for a committee vote, just did it. And it worked. I'm drum brakes front & rear and I'm liking that system. With 400lbs of scoot & rider it seems like plenty of brakes to me.
Greg
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Post by katt on Jun 25, 2018 13:41:21 GMT -5
Katt, take the MSF class. It's obvious you care about your riding, so go learn some facts backed up by decades of experience. If MSF isn't in your part of the world, find a class. Even some military bases will have classes that thry will open to the public. I could if it was free or affordable here in LA its $250, even though i will get my M1 driving license without riding test if i bring MSF certificate i rather just pass an DMV exam and save money.
Can get familiar with MSF free on YouTube perhaps. Problem with using the rear brake firmly is skid control. If/when the rear wheel breaks free, and starts to skid due to excessive brake application is that you are out of control, steering wise. It's gonna go where it wants to go, and you are along for the ride(bumpy.) Front locking is worse it turns entire scooter around (horizontally) from what i read in DMV booklet rear wheel locking is more controllable you supposedly can control bike until it stops even when rear locks due to engine failure.
Rear disk brakes are a waste of money. The drum brakes should have more than enough capability to stop, and 999 times out of 1000 you will be able to skid the rear wheel with drum brakes just the same as with disk. Perhaps you right i did happen to lock the rear brakes with drums when practiced emergency braking so i adjusted them to be more loose and since they were not as strong guess need to play with adjustment again to see how powerful drums really are. From what i experienced briefly when rear wheel locks from braking too hard its same story as front releasing brakes little unlocks it instantly.
I had a traffic light change unexpectedly on me a few days ago and I just grabbed a double handful of brakes and came to a quick controlled stop. I didn't think front or rear cuz there wasn't time enough for a committee vote, just did it. And it worked. I'm drum brakes front & rear and I'm liking that system. With 400lbs of scoot & rider it seems like plenty of brakes to me . I always ride with my fingers on the brake leavers for unexpected situations in LA traffic, 3 fingers on rear drum and 2 fingers on front disk, ready to engage any second.
This was reason to upgrade to disk because with just 2 fingers you can provide any pressure you need trough hydraulic system and with drum it seems like you need to use more force (fingers). But again i got to adjust it and see.
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Post by greginisn on Jun 25, 2018 22:24:22 GMT -5
Katt
There is MSF info available online. So check that out. It probably better than no info at all. Good luck. I have a 69 pg .pdf copy from 2005, how much can riding change? If you are unable to locate it pm me and I'll forward a copy to you.
Greg
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Post by benji on Jun 25, 2018 23:18:55 GMT -5
I've had scooters with front disc brake and rear drum brake, drum brakes front and rear, and disc brakes front and rear.
On my older scooters with drum brakes front and rear, they do tend to stop okay. But not great. The big problem with brakes is heat dissipation. Use the brakes once real hard, and it takes a long time for the brakes to cool down to the point where you can use them in an emergency stop safely. I have a Honda Spree that weighs about 90 pounds, and when those drums get hot it takes about 200 ft to stop from 30 miles per hour.
On my pre bug with front and rear drums, I used to use the front brake judiciously. Very rarely using the rear brake, if at all. The front brake on that bike works very good and would allow the bike to turn on a dime. Until the tire Broke Free and I lost traction, then I hit the ground pretty hard.
From what I've noticed, Most scooters with front drum brakes have 10 in Wheels, and short wheels don't have a lot of Leverage on the ground. When you're slowing down hard and the front wheel locks up, it's very hard not to go down since most of your weight is balanced on that front wheel.
Disc brakes however, have much better heat dissipation properties and much more force is available which makes modulation much easier. A rear disc brake was probably the single best modification I did to my bugeye Zuma, it allows it to slow down much faster. I use mostly the rear brake on that bike to slow down, which allows me to use the front wheel to control the direction of the bike better. If I lock up the rear wheel, I can handle that. I've been doing that since I was a kid haha. If I lock up that front wheel, I'm not walking away. I probably wouldn't be walking for a couple days after that.
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