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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jul 11, 2018 9:20:54 GMT -5
I just went back and re-read, noting this:
"It will not restart either by electric or kicking it. It usually starts with one kick but lately, I have had some trouble starting it with the electric. It would crank and crank but no start. I kick it once and poof...starts right up. "
FWIW, people report higher compression readings when kicking the engine over than developed by the electric starter. Thusly, I would suspect the coil that generates the juice needed to run the CDI has become less effective over time(kick vs electric), and has finally given up the ghost. You might check the output of the winding that runs the CDI, and possibly the pickup that triggers the CDI. That's where I would start, given the fuel supply being verified. I think you're going in the right direction looking at 'stator stuff'. FWIW, the threads on the stator (internal) are left hand from what I have seen. I have NOT fiddled with one.
Talking old stuff, driving a '59 T-bird down the Dan Ryan in Chicago on the way home to Indy, the engine just stopped. I was able to make it to the 'gore' of an on-ramp and stopped, right there between two flows of 60+ mph traffic, trying to determine why this old bird had come to a halt. It was used enough the flexible wire that fed the points(who knows what THEY are any more) had flexed enough that the wires finally broke and cut power. They flex every time the points 'plate' moved from the vacuum advance. Cut the wire, removed some insulation and connected to the points. It started. Then the problem was waiting for an opportunity to merge between two lanes of traffic... The ceramic dropping resistor, mounted to the firewall of many a ChryCo vehicle, was another hidden 'source' of problems. tom
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 11, 2018 13:34:00 GMT -5
Tom, yes, I figured that was a good clue but I had no idea what it might be trying to tell me. Brent made a good post a few back that gave me some specs to check with the stator and pick-up gap, etc. which I will do. Thanks, now I feel better that I ordered that electrical stuff and the flywheel puller. A guy here at work that repairs ATV's says the cdi boxes on them go bad all the time and can give the symptoms I described to him. It will not bother me to replace all three (stator, coil, CDI) just to have new stuff that might not crap out on me at a bad time.
I was sure cussing my little scooter but, when I thought about it, it got me all the way home...and I mean all the way onto my patio where I park it before dying so, I am very happy with that as it was a tad over 100 F with the heat index at about 106.
Yes, those ballast resistors for Chrysler products were notorious for going bad. I always carried an extra one in the glove box of the 3 vehicles I owned that used them.
Electrical parts due in early next week so, I will double check valve lash while waiting but probably on hold until then.
Thanks again,
Bill
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Post by FrankenMech on Jul 12, 2018 2:54:38 GMT -5
Many people used plain old crimp wire terminals on those Mopar resistors. Those terminals would lose contact due to expansion from the heat from the resistor, corrode, and become intermittent. You had to use the high temp crimp wire terminals for electric dryer heating coils on the Mopar resistor. You can get those high temp crimp connectors at appliance dealers or electrical supply houses. The heater fan speed control resistors also required those high temp connectors.
And yes, I know about points and condensers....
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 19, 2018 18:49:12 GMT -5
Well, my parts arrived and I started by just swapping out the CDI. It would not start on the electric BUT, it did start when I kicked it. After my last ride home from work a week ago or so, I could not get it to start no matter what I did. Interesting that after it warmed up, the idle was very low about 1600, instead of 2000. So, I leaned it out and it got even lower so...I enriched it about 1/2 turn, which is a lot on this scoot, and the idle went up to 1850. More rich and it dropped off so, I went back to where it was highest. I then raised the idle adjustment to hit 2000.
My question is, can a different CDI change the idle and/or mixture settings required? Like more advance, needs more gas, or something like that? The CDI that arrived with my kit was the wrong plug style (5 pin sing plug) so I ordered a 6 pin stock CDI and it arrived today. It is about 2" shorter than the one in my scoot. I will still swap out the coil and stator this weekend but I was just curious because I had it nice and tuned to idle right at 2000 when warmed up and all was fine until my issues happened. Starts hot on starter fine now, just like before.
I will need to really test it before riding to work again. I am so glad I didn't get stuck last time. I will report back once I replace the stator and coil.
Bill
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Post by FrankenMech on Jul 19, 2018 21:40:40 GMT -5
I think a new CDI may require a idle speed adjustment but I would not be as concerned about the mixture. With any change in conditions, temp, humidity, altitude/pressure, or timing, small mixture adjustments could be made to optimize the idle but the main change would be a simple speed adjustment. If large changes in conditions are encountered then larger adjustments to mix and speed are in order.
Difficulty starting can also be an indicator of loss of compression due to valve adjustments or leaks in a 4T. A bad or fouled spark plug is also a common cause.
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Moat
Scoot Member
Posts: 88
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Post by Moat on Jul 20, 2018 1:59:04 GMT -5
A weak spark can present as a misfire under increased throttle, as the simultaneously increased combustion pressure literally "snuffs out" the spark. You back off the throttle, the pressure drops, and it resumes sparking.
Also, a prominent "bang!" (not so much a softer "pop") from the exhaust indicates an ignition misfire - the unburned fuel collecting in the muffler being ignited by the exhaust from the next successful combustion event.
I'd guess weak spark.
One easy way to check is to reduce the plug gap slightly and see if the misfire (or hard starting) improves - as the smaller gap is easier for the (weak) spark to jump.
Bob
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 21, 2018 16:46:38 GMT -5
Well, I am more confused now. My parts arrived and I installed the cdi as I mentioned above and today, I replaced the entire fuel line from the tank to the carb and also replaced the filter. Today, still, it would not fire up on the starter but 1 kick and she started right up. Took it for a ride and it rode the smoothest it ever has. A lot less vibration and great acceleration. I had warmed it up on the center stand so, I tried a test run and...took off just great (for a 49cc) and got up to about 38 mph and 8,150 on the tach and all of a sudden...it was like you turned off the fuel...again. I backed off and it slowed to about 20 and I went W.O.T. and it took off once again and then...same thing. I turned around to head home and went wide open again and, this time, I could not get the throttle to pick back up until I slowed to about 10 mph for 30 seconds or so, then...it took off again and I parked it when I got home. If I did not know better I would say this was a classic fuel starvation response. But let me tell you the mess I made when replacing the fuel lines and filter. I tried to do the "quick swap" and had everything ready but still, I lost a bunch of fuel that flowed out of the open line like water from a garden hose. This happened at the carb. and the filter joints as well. So, that tells me the screen in the tank is fine and I get really good flow (this fuel line has a little larger I.D. then the one I replaced) to the carb. Last time I opened the bowl drain and it flowed out of the bottom of the carb very well too. I did not replaced the stator and hope I do not have to. The stator that arrived has 9 wires for connections and 2 of them are just bare with no connectors on the ends. I watched 5 videos of how to replace these but not one told where all of these wires connect.
I got rained out but tomorrow, I will open the carb up to check that diaphragm that surrounds the needle. I remember seeing either a post here, or video where that had a small tear in it and it gave symptoms that were very had to diagnose...I do not remember exactly but...something like that might account for why it runs so well to a certain point and then craps out. Main jet should not be clogged as it runs from 0-38 flawlessly wide open. Also, now, it will not hot start on the electric starter like it had been doing. But again...one kick...sometimes 2 and it is off to the races. In other words, the tune, and everything else should be pretty good...except for whatever is wrong. I will also swap the coil for a new one tomorrow and if that does not help, I will trying installing the new stator. If that does not help, I have a new carb just sitting here I could install after I up jet it to 32, and 85. If that does not do it...I am totally lost.
Bill
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 22, 2018 10:56:39 GMT -5
Anyone have any idea where these two bare wires connect to? One is black, the other is red/green. I watched a lot of videos on changing out the stator and, also Brent's video on testing the output but this stator does not have a modular connector (plug) on the wires, all the wires are single with single connectors on the ends. There are 7 of those wires and 2 wires that are bare. Before I rip it all apart, does this sound correct for a 49cc gy6 139Qmb stator?
Thanks in advance.
Bill EDIT: Never mind. It is now obvious that they sent me the wrong stator. I looked at photos online and, this one is for a 2T. Oh well.
Bill
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Post by scootnewb on Jul 22, 2018 14:29:35 GMT -5
Maybe the battery is not producing enough 'cranking amps' or whatever it is called so the electric start won't start it. I don't know about the other problem but upping the jets and checking the carb sounds good to me.
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 22, 2018 14:54:36 GMT -5
Maybe the battery is not producing enough 'cranking amps' or whatever it is called so the electric start won't start it. I don't know about the other problem but upping the jets and checking the carb sounds good to me. Thanks, but the jets are fine and I have been running those sizes for 3 years and my plug always looks great. I meant that I would transfer those jets into the new carb. and then install it. (A vendor sent me a new carb instead of the clutch I ordered a few months ago and, told me to just keep the carb, and re-shipped my clutch to me) The bonus is that it would give me a new enricher. I tried swapping out the old enricher with the new one from the new carb but, I was not able to remove the phillips head screws. I did test the output of my stator and it went up to 60 volts at a higher rpm like in Brent's videos. The bad news is they sent me the wrong stator and, get this, the wrong "universal" stator puller. It had 2 different sizes and was supposed to work on a 49cc gy6 4T but, neither size worked because I have left-hand I.D. threads on mine and the puller had right hand threads. it is OK because the stator appears to be fine. The starter cranks the engine over at 600 rpm according to the tach which should be ample...and it was when the engine was warmed up...but not now. I am thinking it might be the enricher or, possibly a torn diaphragm inside the carb. So, next weekend, since I got rained out today, I will install the new carb. and see. Oh, and I installed the new coil I bought and it would not start no matter what I did. I put the old coil back in and it started on 1 kick. So, as not to have a total loss (wrong puller, wrong stator, wrong CDI box, wrong coil) I did transfer the wire and plug connector from the new coil to my old one so at least that part is new. the old one had a few cracks in the high voltage lead. The battery is about 4 years old so, you never know, you might be right. It would not hurt to replace that anyway. Something is still wrong at over 7,000-8,000 rpm after riding W.O.T. for a few seconds as it still shuts down. This is driving me nuts. Thanks for your responses, Bill
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Post by FrankenMech on Jul 22, 2018 22:45:51 GMT -5
You need to drive the scoot rather than your nuts....
Chasing around and shooting craps with new parts is getting you further and further from running.
First things first! The engine starts with a kick, that means the carb and ignition is probably OK. Figure out why it wont start with the starter. Then you can worry about the WOT problem.
An engine needs fuel, air, compression, and spark to run. You have fuel and air so look for something knocking out the ignition like a bad or missing ground and check your compression.
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 23, 2018 9:33:50 GMT -5
You need to drive the scoot rather than your nuts.... Chasing around and shooting craps with new parts is getting you further and further from running. First things first! The engine starts with a kick, that means the carb and ignition is probably OK. Figure out why it wont start with the starter. Then you can worry about the WOT problem. An engine needs fuel, air, compression, and spark to run. You have fuel and air so look for something knocking out the ignition like a bad or missing ground and check your compression. Good point...back to basics. I have been trying, but failing, to figure out what the kicker does differently than the electric starter. Would the kicker overcome a vacuum leak better and allow a start? The good news is, no backfiring during my tests with the new CDI but same bog/shutdown at w.o.t. for more than 20 seconds. I agree with you that there can't be too much wrong since it will start (usually) on 1 or 2 kicks. The only reason I am considering replacing the carb. is to eliminate the internal diaphragm and the enricher which I can not remove as the screws have welded themselves to the aluminum casting. I had not considered a loose ground so I will be checking that next. Thanks. Bill EDIT: I am curious, if the PAIR system messes up, can if give these symptoms I am getting? I never did remove it and maybe it is leaking vacuum internally? Just wondering out loud here.
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jul 23, 2018 11:38:01 GMT -5
Two thoughts: Get a small vise-grip and use it on the sides of the screw heads to break the screws free. Clamp on tightly and turn. If there was a vacuum leak, the starter cranks at slower rpm than the kick starter from reports on this site, and could make it harder to start. A vacuum leak could over time allow the vacuum petcock to close, possible fully, possibly partially, leading to a slow lowering of the fuel level in the float bowl. Not a complete runout, but enough to lean out the mix so it won't run properly. The plastic elbow has an O-ring seal on the lower end. If the O-ring has hardened and is not sealing effectively, that could hurt vacuum... The fixed section, made of something similar to Bakelite, has a gasket where it attaches to the cylinder head. Generally they get 'stuck' and don't leak, but it could happen. You may be able to detect a vacuum leak using an un-lit propane torch with a length of rubber tubing. Engine at idle, move the end of the tubing around the intake side of the carburetor with the propane slowly flowing out the tube. If there's a leak, the added propane will make a lean mix rich and it will run better, or make a good mix run more poorly by getting too rich. If there is a leak, it should be reflected in the change in engine running. Maybe. Some report it doesn't work for beans. I have used some blue RTV smeared onto the lower end of the intake when I am concerned that the O-ring seal is suspect. After tighening the elbow, it should provide sealing if the O-ring is just a little tired. I think. tom
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 23, 2018 13:20:06 GMT -5
Two thoughts: Get a small vise-grip and use it on the sides of the screw heads to break the screws free. Clamp on tightly and turn. If there was a vacuum leak, the starter cranks at slower rpm than the kick starter from reports on this site, and could make it harder to start. A vacuum leak could over time allow the vacuum petcock to close, possible fully, possibly partially, leading to a slow lowering of the fuel level in the float bowl. Not a complete runout, but enough to lean out the mix so it won't run properly. The plastic elbow has an O-ring seal on the lower end. If the O-ring has hardened and is not sealing effectively, that could hurt vacuum... The fixed section, made of something similar to Bakelite, has a gasket where it attaches to the cylinder head. Generally they get 'stuck' and don't leak, but it could happen. You may be able to detect a vacuum leak using an un-lit propane torch with a length of rubber tubing. Engine at idle, move the end of the tubing around the intake side of the carburetor with the propane slowly flowing out the tube. If there's a leak, the added propane will make a lean mix rich and it will run better, or make a good mix run more poorly by getting too rich. If there is a leak, it should be reflected in the change in engine running. Maybe. Some report it doesn't work for beans. I have used some blue RTV smeared onto the lower end of the intake when I am concerned that the O-ring seal is suspect. After tighening the elbow, it should provide sealing if the O-ring is just a little tired. I think. tom Good thoughts, thank you. I checked the intake visually but, I forgot there was that single O-ring seal in there..I will check that. I have been using a manual petcock for about 2 years now and love it. But, the thought just occurred to me today that...what if a piece of something got in there and is partially blocking the output flow? I did drain fuel right out of the carb. bowl when testing the gas for water...and flow and it looked fine and flowed fine but, I am not sure that I actually drained more than that bowl holds for my tests so, I may remove the petcock and take a road test without it just to eliminate that possibility. Should not affect the starting though so, probably not it. When I changed out my fuel line below the petcock, I of course had that valve cut off. Above the petcock fuel flowed very, very well in a short time and I made quite a mess, ha ha. The reason I had asked about that PAIR system is because when swapping out my coil yesterday, I noticed a vacuum line running up the frame to that canister that appears like it has a diaphragm inside it. If that has torn a bit, that could give me a big vacuum leak that I would never even see. I will watch Brent's video on removing it and give that some thought as well. A lot more checking to do for me and I really do appreciate the input. Thanks, Bill
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Post by new2scootin on Jul 28, 2018 19:31:39 GMT -5
I know I'm chiming Lin really late in this conversation but I just had this exact same issue. It was indeed fuel starved. I cleaned the carb to no avail. I ended up adjusting the float to allow just a tad bit more fuel in and that solved my problem.
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