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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jun 26, 2019 8:28:03 GMT -5
Well, finally got it to pop last night. Tried the electric starter, and nothing. Figured out the brake and starter switches were working, but the relay was not. Hacksawed the plastic, and found the rust. No worky. Jumpered the 'load' terminals, and it whirred a bit. No spin. Tried a few times more, and the Bendix finally engaged. It cranked slowly, but by that time my fingers were getting burned due to the smaller gauge wire used to jumper. Kicked it a few times with no 'pop', but it did have compression. Finally found a bit of ether. Gave it a snort, key ON, and kicked. It poppped popped and died. I had previously pulled the float bowl, cleaned out the goo, removed, cleaned and inspected the jets and emulsion tubes, re-assembled, and applied vacuum to the petcock. There was about a half-quart of 40:1 mix(fresh, yesterday) in the tank. The float bowl was full(I think), and it dribbled once, I thumped with a screwdriver handle, and it quit. The petcock dripped, so that was re-fixed with a new clamp, and it was dry. After the snort, I kicked a few more times, and it started and ran for 15-30 seconds. I declared victory and went to bed. Today I plan to figure out the adjustments from the shop manual on the idle settings. The plastic insulator between the carb and the metal intake port was upside down when take apart. The fuel line from petcock to the carb was blocked 100% by some rock-hard stuff. There's no way this thing could have run in any recent history, and any mechanic that tested would have had to take it apart a bit more to know what I discovered. So, now I have the insulator right side up, the fuel line is cleared up, and fuel is in the bowl, so I need to check settings that MAY have been diddled with by previous 'mechanics' that didn't even check the fuel line, and certainly didn't put it back together correctly. As noted previously, it was declared 'seized', and sitting in a repair shop, sold for scrap/rehab, and I bought from the recycler. No compression. Any quick thoughts on base settings so it should start, and be able to be run-in a bit? Is there any 'prime' that needs to be done for the cooling system? I filled the reservoir as instructed, but don't see any fluid in the tubes.. Does it fill itself? tom
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Post by geoffh on Jun 26, 2019 15:15:02 GMT -5
Nice to have a runner :)I would start with the mixture screw 2 or 2 1/2 turns out and then adjust the idle later so it sounds "nice" ,make sure you have the air box connected up.I have no info on water cooled systems.
Geoff
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jun 27, 2019 14:28:46 GMT -5
Air cleaner in place, vacuum applied to petcock for ~30 seconds or more then hose replaced on carb fitting, so the float bowl should be full. Idle air screw out 1-1/2 to 2 turns, key ON. Kick and it starts right up and runs for about 3-4 seconds and then stops. Kick again, and it doesn't want to start, or barely responds. I do not know 2T engines that well, so am looking for input from someone who has been there.
Is it possible the exhaust is plugged? It putts, but not loudly. I suppose I could disconnect the down pipe and see what happens. Just as I'm about to reach for the twist grip throttle, and open it up a bit, it putters to a stop.
When I put the air cleaner snorkel on, I noted there was a slight coating on the inner diameter of the tube, mostly at the bottom, as if there had been something flowing through that left a slight coating of dirt. Maybe the old rings were dusted? Either way, putting the cleaner on did nothing to the way it starts and stops. To my limited experience, the short run is almost as if it runs out of fuel quickly, and then will get a breather after a while, and more will trickle down into the float bowl for another 3-5 second run. I think I'll loosen up the exhaust and see if there is too much back pressure that prevents more mix from coming in and firing. What can it hurt? tom
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Post by geoffh on Jun 27, 2019 15:26:31 GMT -5
Tom,the carb holds enough fuel to run for a good while,test the pet cock by applying suction and then crimp it and let the fuel run into a jar ,it should be a constant flow.it is possible to fit the piston with the exhaust and inlet reversed,normally an arrow on the piston points to the exhaust port,I made that mistake and got your symptoms.plugged exhaust is unlikely ,the remedy just makes good u tubeing IMO.
Geoff
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jun 28, 2019 8:55:10 GMT -5
I got out the el-cheapo USB camera and checked the piston orientation just now. The letters 'ex' are at the bottom, where the exhaust port is located. I think it is installed correctly. I figured the engine should be able to run on the float bowl contents for at least a few minutes. Not happening. I loosened the down pipe, and it seemed to run for a smidgen longer, but not by much. When it did run, it sounded pretty good. I have a MityVac with a gauge($5 yard sail) and used it to apply solid vacuum to the petcock. It made no difference. The tank outlet is definitely wide open as I had to remove the petcock to re-seal. The fuel line was 100% occluded, the blockage seemed as if it was made of mud.??? Dark, removable by a length of wire poking and turning. I opened the float bowl drain, and fuel came out. I will make sure it flows freely with the vacuum on the petcock. When I pulled the plug, it seemed to be slightly wet, after sitting overnight. The camera showed nothing unusual, and EX was at the bottom(whew!). My experience being so limited, I wonder what the symptoms are for leaking crankshaft seals. My impression of the way it seems to be working is that if I leave it for a while, then key ON, and give it a kick or use the starter, it will start immediately and run for several seconds, then sort of peter out. I have not had it running long enough to actually even try to open the throttle, but I will try that soonly. The 'petering out' and slowly losing its 'buzz' made me think of a lack of fuel, as when you run out, the engine will slowly slow down. If the crank seals were leaky, would the engine be able to pull in a fuel:air mix at slow speed? Why would it seem that the engine has to 'recover' after each running? I cannot re-start the engine at all after it has run for the 3-5-8 seconds unless I wait for a while. (reminds me of a slow fuel feed, where you have to wait for fuel to trickle into the float bowl before you can get things going again) What can happen with a 2T that lets it run for a short burst, then be unable to re-start for a while, and then after waiting(I don't know how long) it will then re-start and run for a few seconds all over again. That description made me think of back pressure that opposed intake after running and filling the down pipe and muffler with exhaust gas, and prevented intake of new fresh fuel/air. Wait until the pressure dissipates, and it will go again. I loosened the exhaust fittings to allow for leakage of exhaust, and no big difference. What else can do this? When it runs, it actually runs pretty well, as if the mixture & idle speed are set properly. I do NOT notice any effect from the 'enrichment' that is supposed to help cold idle mix and speed. The service manual said to use a length of rubber tubing and blow into the 'air' port that feeds the enrichment circuit with the engine cold, and if air could pass, it was functional. (and to test HOT, where air should not pass, but I ain't there yet...) I did not take the carb apart except two jets, emulsion tube, and cleaning the float bowl & needle and seat. When I got it, the air cleaner 'tube' was removed completely, so the carb inlet was open to air, the phenolic insulator between carb and intake manifold was upside down, and allowed a LOT of air to leak past, and as noted above the fuel line was totally blocked. If the flappers were too stiff or gummed, ok, reed valves now that my brain caught up, would that cause the short run cycle? If so, how? I did not investigate whether there was 'stuff' in the crankcase, i.e., fuel from a bad float valve, but when kicking it over, there was nothing of note with the cylinder & piston removed(I held onto the connecting rod to prevent flailing). These are so simple the problem should stand out like a thumb that was used as a nail protector. In short, it can pump fuel:air mix in for a few seconds, and then quits doing that. It has a LOT more compression than it did previously. The spark plug is slightly wet after a good long pause. tom 2PM added
Got out a vacuum gauge, connected to the petcock vacuum port. Loosened the muffler bolts/nuts and jammed the down pipe so there was a gap between pipe and exhaust port. Vacuum on the petcock, and fuel flow from the float bowl drain showed good flow. Used the starter, and it started, ran long enough for me to rev up to ~5k. Sounded like a chainsaw. Vacuum gauge fluttered between 0 and 5, not the same as a V8. Don't know what to expect. Still same deal, petered out and I could not keep it running by jazzing the throttle. Did not want to restart. Checked fuel as quickly as I could, and it flowed almost immediately(10" long tube from the drain to a coke bottle). I am be thinkin' there may be a reed problem. So that's the next thing to look at w/o any input that would steer me to something else. (I don't know what else there is...) tom
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Post by geoffh on Jun 28, 2019 14:42:39 GMT -5
My heads starting to hurt,check the reed valves just to tick them off the list,try the engine with the enricher unplugged,check the carb slide is moving correctly,then strip the carb down and poke prod blow down every orifice to clear them out,the crank seals are an unlikely cause,any residue of bad fuel in crankcase would have been cleared by that 5th rpm blast you had,it will be something small and annoying but just what is yet to come.chin up
Geoff
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jun 29, 2019 9:47:30 GMT -5
This is not the beginning, it is not even the start...
I won't give up. I feel that the reeds are a bit harder to get to than the carb, so given it acts, to me, as if it is running out of fuel, I will attack the carburetor. I did not take it all the way apart, so there's every possibility that there's something causing fuel flow problems. Might even be a sticky needle valve, though I did clean the needle & tip, and inspected the valve seat & bore as best I could. I have tried to figure out what would 'let it run for a while, peter out, and then need time to recover before it can take another run'... and have come up with only one thing, no two. Pressure in the crankcase or lack of vacuum to pull the mix in, or a fuel problem internal to the carb. It (the carb) had been take apart prior, and was put back together wrong, and would have never been able to start, much less run, so there's likely a problem there. Making a gap between the exhaust port and down pipe made for more noise, and I was able to get it to rev past idle speed, so reducing back pressure allowed it to rev ... even on (in my mind, not proven) limited fuel it ran better. I don't have anything to compare to enabling me to understand the pulsation of vacuum in the intake. I don't expect a lot of vacuum from 50cc, but the vacuum gauge needle just bounced and fluttered. Which makes sense in that there's one tiny piston that has to pull the mix into the crankcase via the reeds. Just getting the reeds to open means there is vacuum being formed(lower pressure, anyway, and atmospheric pressure pushes the mix in) so they must be functioning. So, rather than breaking the reed gaskets, and having to either cut new, or go RTV silicone, I'll hit the carb. tom
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jul 1, 2019 7:10:31 GMT -5
Success, to a degree, but I don't know exactly why. I removed the carburetor, and took it apart more than before. Only thing of real note was the discovery(not seen before) of a tiny jet in the side of the float bowl. This jet limits fuel to the well that the cold start mechanism feeds from. It is about the diameter of a Q-tip plastic tube, the one between the cotton swab ends. Tiny. I cleaned with snip from a wire brush held in small nose pliers. I also noted the bowl gasket surrounds the well, which may keep its 'vacuum' from accessing the float bowl. IOW if the bowl gasket hits properly, the well(a tube with an inlet jet near the bottom) may be subject to intake vacuum when the enricher is retracted. When I put it back together, I used a bit of RTV to help seal the inner arc of the gasket. That portion is not well supported by the bowl, and could have allowed air from the float bowl to get in. PBT. Crank. Started and ran for 4-5 seconds as before. Waaaahhh. So, given that I noted the enricher seemed extended to me, I poked a tapered rubber thingy from the MityVac assortment, and tried again. Not sure if it ran more or just the normal start-buzz-die routine. Went back to thinking about the 'cold start' system. Considering that it started and ran for a while, seemingly the same length of time each cycle, BUT, would not run immediately after, and needed a bit of time to recover, figured it might be running on the fuel in the 'well', which would be replenished from the float bowl as fuel slowly filled the well. Hmmmm. Maybe the original idle mixuture and idle speed were not close to allowing the engine to run without the help(as short as it was) of the enricher. So, I set the idle mix back to 1.25 turns out, set the idle speed to 1.5 turns out, plugged the air channel feeding the enricher, and cranked it. Vroom. Started with a slight difficulty(enricher plugged) but would keep running. Stinky smoke in the basement. I let it run for several minutes, varying the rpms. Went to bed.
So, what now? I think it will start, but not sure about the enricher. As I think, if I unblock the air feed, the enricher will have 3-5 seconds of fuel in the well, and then will be limited by the bleed jet from the float bowl. When I took it apart, it seemed to me the brass 'plug' with the pointy end was extended from the enricher, which I thought would block flow as if the engine & enricher were all warmed up. But, it flows air as the service manual says it should when cold. Guess I just don't know. Plan now is to put stuff back together, and deal with the enricher down the road. I think it will start if I give it a try now. In summary, the 'base' settings for the idle mix and slow speed may have been too far out of adjustment, and the gasket may have leaked, and the tiny jet may have been plugged(I don't think so as the enricher recovered over time so it would start/run after a while). And the enricher itself may be inoperative. Thanks to all for the help & suggestions. Now I have to look at the CVT as the rear wheel didn't budge even running up to 5k rpms. tom
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Post by geoffh on Jul 1, 2019 15:26:13 GMT -5
Tom,good to see some improvement,never hurts to clean a carb,just mind boggling how it works,the CVT should be easy for you.you can bench test the enricher (use the directory to find it).I have concerns about the quality of Chinese carbs and would try to replace it with a dellorto if you can find one,I have a spare one you can have for free but it,s a 10th mile round trip. Geoff
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Post by 190mech on Jul 1, 2019 17:19:49 GMT -5
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Post by SMALL CC TEK on Jul 1, 2019 20:10:25 GMT -5
Your Super 9 is super silent because that muffler has 20 pounds of steel in it ! LOL The Factory setting on your carb is 1 1/4 to 1 1/2 open O yeah the idle speed is 2000+100 or -
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Aug 9, 2019 9:14:09 GMT -5
Back at it again. Removed the carb, and pulled the jets. Main jet and emulsion tube were both clean. Pilot jet was plugged, emulsion tube clean. Use a wire brush bristle to poke the pilot open. Twirled it around a bit, and repeated, trying to make sure there was no free crud in there to plug it up in the next few minutes of operation. PBT, figuring it would start and run. Not. Gave up for a week or so with other demands. A week or so later, back at it once again. Looked at the slide piston, and the gap at the bottom seemed huge, so I removed it and checked its fit. Installed, and it went further down the bore, closer to the bottom. Cranked and got nothing. Float was full as I had drained the tank and re-sealed the petcock(what WERE they thinking in sealing the petcock to the tank?????) which had decided to drip without pause. Removed the carb once again as the float bowl needle valve was also allowing fuel to drip from the carb itself. No lack of fuel here... Decided that what I read on-site about covering the enrichener with a thumb was a valid test. Did so. Started right up, and ran for more than 5 seconds, closer to 10 or 20, and then died. Now what. I did not tryh to restart, reassured that the problem was in the carburetion, not the work I had done. Took a CVK carb enrichener to compare, and both look the same. The plunger(?) in the Kymco carb is easily moved back into the solenoid. The spring is real soft. The CVK plunger is a bit more difficult to push back in. They both are extended the same amount. I watched the 10X demo of them in action. From observation, they extend from 3/4" to about 7/8" in the video. I am confused as to what it means when the 'thumb' action seems to make the carb able to pull fuel:air in and run. I read in the service manual that with things at room temperature, you should be able to blow air into the air port that feeds the enrichener, and that port would be blocked off once the engine was warmed up. I was able to blow through the port, so I figured there was an open passage for air & gas to feed things. It did, apparently and as above, ran the engine for 4-5 seconds, and died no matter what I did with the throttle. With that plugged I was able to run longer, and actually rev the engine a bit. Pull the carb, clean the jets, etc, PBT, and it wouldn't start until I used the thumb trick. The throttle slide is lower in the venturi, so I should be running on the idle jet rather than the main(better when cold, I figure), but it wouldn't start until I plugged the enrichener with a thumb. It then started. WTF passages are open or blocked that are making it so difficult to get running, AND making it not want to run for long past idle speed, or run at all, unless the enrichener is meddled with? I have other enricheners, a few that are brand new. I'll check them to see how they move, and perhaps try one, but have zero confidence that I understand in the least what is going on. I realize this was apparently taken apart by an ignorant owner/mech, attempting to fiddle with the carb, as the isolator between carb & manifold was upside down, and the fuel line totally plugged with (dirt) ???. Both of those items were corrected, the insides of the carb were pretty clean, the pilot was plugged(thought I had checked it before...), so it was NOT in running condition, but the items I could find & fix, I did. 2T carbs, simple as a hammer and a nail, have me flummoxed. I think the enrichener is the problem, but hold no confidence. Any 2T wizards have any ideas and knowledge they wish to impart? tom
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Post by catchacuda on Aug 9, 2019 10:04:28 GMT -5
Probably a stupid question but was the petcock totally disassembled and cleaned? I recently had a 68 Kawasaki c2ss drive me nuts. Similar symptoms you seem to be seeing. I found what looked like tiny bits of wood inside the petcock, must have been intermittently restricting/ shutting off fuel flow.
I'd love to see you get this going soon!
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Aug 9, 2019 10:22:30 GMT -5
As far as I can tell, the petcock is a more or less standard vacuum operated unit. It does not have the normal screw on compression fitting where it is inserted into the tank. The tank being plastic makes that a moot option, I think. Instead, it is held by a normal hose clamp compressing the outlet around the petcock body where it is tubular. It is not one that can be taken apart. It does work. I have used a vacuum source and drained the tank completely via the petcock, more than once, so I know it flows fuel. I have opened the float bowl drain to make sure there was fuel in the bowl, and it has proven to have fuel, which I can also see through the side of the fuel filter I installed. When you drain the tank, the filter semi-transparent housing indicates there is no or little fuel kept in the filter. IOW, it drains, and you can see the filter is empty. I am pretty sure fuel is filling the bowl as needed. tom
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Post by catchacuda on Aug 9, 2019 10:51:25 GMT -5
Sorry,I read your posts multiple times and still brought up a scenario which didn't really apply!
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