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Post by Happypancake! on May 19, 2018 8:48:58 GMT -5
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Post by Trigger1212 on May 19, 2018 21:48:06 GMT -5
HP, Well engine out and on the bench, got the old cam out and the new one in. I THINK the cam may have been off a tooth or two, when the TCD flywheel mark was lined up with the indicator the cam sprocket did not line up. When I put it back together I made sure they lined up when the chain tensioner was applied. Pulled out and went in with no problems, took my time as it was my first time. Got it all buttoned up and will tackle the carb jetting and needle ship tomorrow.
As far as the exhaust goes, looked at your picture then went out an looked at the muffler, I can see right under the bracket weld where the pipe gets fatter which is where it appears this restriction is located. Did you cut your pipe off and then grind out the restriction and weld it back together? That would be a major PITA to do but not impossible, would be worth it IF it resulted in better performance (let the engine breath). In your experience is this modification necessary to get the full juice out of the engine and take advantage of the other mods?
Cheers!
Wade
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Post by Happypancake! on May 19, 2018 22:28:05 GMT -5
Mod is needed. The GET motor is ultimately restricted by the intake valve ID. I do appreciate your detail on the motor details. There is a lot of HP in this Honda motor. Next restriction is the carb. Either port the stock or add a PC10/20. Some have successfully got 13,000 rpm from this motor. my AngryWaffle build uses a 4-valve euro Ruck motor adapted to run on a carb. Unfortunatetly, I did too many mods at once andd put in NB50 gears which are to tall. My 58cc BB can cruise @ 55+mph. I may swap the NB50 gears to the BB. 60+ is w/in reason.
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Post by Trigger1212 on May 20, 2018 15:37:20 GMT -5
HP, Well engine out and on the bench, got the old cam out and the new one in. I THINK the cam may have been off a tooth or two, when the TCD flywheel mark was lined up with the indicator the cam sprocket did not line up. When I put it back together I made sure they lined up when the chain tensioner was applied. Pulled out and went in with no problems, took my time as it was my first time. Got it all buttoned up and will tackle the carb jetting and needle ship tomorrow.
As far as the exhaust goes, looked at your picture then went out an looked at the muffler, I can see right under the bracket weld where the pipe gets fatter which is where it appears this restriction is located. Did you cut your pipe off and then grind out the restriction and weld it back together? That would be a major PITA to do but not impossible, would be worth it IF it resulted in better performance (let the engine breath). In your experience is this modification necessary to get the full juice out of the engine and take advantage of the other mods?
Cheers!
Wade
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Post by Trigger1212 on May 20, 2018 15:59:49 GMT -5
Got all the bits and pieces back together, as noted above installed the Met I cam and installed an 80 main jet and 38 slo jet in the carb.
So to recap at this point my Met II has the GET 67 Met I ECU, Met I cam, intake restrictor plate removed, carb dissembled and clean, installed 80 main jet, 38 slo jet and installed shim under needle valve. Polini variator installed using the light rollers. Think that is about it.
Fired it up and took it for a spin. Slight improvement but not a "holy smokes hang on" kind of improvement. Actual performance improvement from installing the cam, jets and shim was fairly slight, actually expected a bit more. Was a bit doggy on the low end, more so than before. Turned in the slow speed screw from 2.5 out to 1.5 out and seems to be a bit better.
One area that DID improve is that as you are accelerating under full throttle you no longer hear the ignition knock sound in the engine. Don't know if it actually was ignition knock but that is what it sounded like. Now sounds smoother under acceleration.
Two possibilities now, actually 3 now that I think about it.
1. Is the valve timing right? When I took it apart I felt that the TDC mark on flywheel and the valve train index marks did not match up like they should have., i.e. when the TDC mark on the flywheel was lined up with the indicator then the valve train index marks were off. I lined them up to where I felt they were both spot on. Maybe I didn't get them as exact as I thought?
2. Polini variator, initially installed the heavy rollers but way to doggy, could not get up into the higher rpm range. Went to the lighter set of rollers and much better, still feels like it might benefit from lighter rollers to keep it up in the higher rpm/power range. Dr Pulley sliders were recommended, have no experience with them at all and have not seen them discussed in the forum so far (just have not seen them I'm sure).
What say you?
3. Still has the Met II exhaust, HP showed where the pipe has a restrictor in it, waaaaay back in the pipe, would need to cut it off, hog it out and weld it back up. PITA to du but if it produces good power I may try it. Anyone done this and have good results?
4. Still have the CDI to install, don't think it will produce much power, but will raise the rpm limit.
If I can get it pulling harder then I'll install the Met I final drive gear set, at this time I don't feel it has the juice to make it worth it.
Feel like at this time the variator should be the next thing to fine tune.
Cheers!
Wade
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Post by Happypancake! on May 20, 2018 16:34:36 GMT -5
 There is a timing mark on the case also. Line this triangle up w/ the woodruff key. I didn't cut the Met II exhaust. Just tossed it in the garbage. CDI should GET you up a few MPH. Whats your rpm now? |
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Post by Trigger1212 on May 20, 2018 19:11:27 GMT -5
Don't have an rpm meter on it as of yet...
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Post by jbjhillbilly on May 20, 2018 23:31:16 GMT -5
Don't have an rpm meter on it as of yet... The $35 trail tech will do. But you need a tach to tune correctly. |
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Post by Trigger1212 on May 21, 2018 20:59:07 GMT -5
Hillbilly, can you give some detail on how you use a tach to tune the Met? The timing is controlled by the ECU, no changing that. Max rpm is also controlled by ECU, unless you install a NYC CDI. On carb you can play with jets and slow speed screw but that is about it. Can play with variator rollers/sliders. So need some direction on how you use the tach to tune the scoot, not sure what is being tuned? Feels like it is geared too tall, still has the Met II final drive so looking at the variator. I did install the Polini variator, tried the heavy weights, something like 6.2 gr, but that kept the scoot out of it's power band as the gearing got too tall too fast. Switched to lighter roller, 5.something, and while much better still feels like a bit much. Heard about Dr Pully sliders, looked on the tube and it's all over the place but nobody gives a real analysis, mostly just how to install. I went to the www.unionmaterials.com website and the page comes up but nothing there to click on so cannot get in to check it out?? Want to get more info on these things. Anyone have good or bad things to say? How are you supposed to know what weight to get? Im thinking lighter to stay in the power band and let it wind up a bit. Just not sure as to what weight to get, suggestions? HP I believe you had recommended 4.5g? Any particular reason for that weight? Do these go in dry just like the rollers or should there be lube/graphite used? Thanks guys! W |
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Post by 90GTVert on May 21, 2018 21:17:02 GMT -5
I use DrPulley sliders in everything from my 50s to my 500. They may provide a performance increase because of their shape, but if nothing else for me they have greatly outlasted rollers. I use them dry. The tach comes in handy for CVT tuning and general monitoring. You can tune the CVT without one, but it's nice to have. I usually do test runs back to back with different weights and find what gives me the highest MPH or best acceleration. Keep variables to a minimum. Try to use the same place and go both directions so wind is not so much of a factor if results are averaged for each test pass. Some use a tach if the RPM they're aiming for is known and just change weight till they get there. If you don't want to buy a bunch of weights to tune with, you can buy a little light and stuff them with aluminum foil to add a gram or so to each. You'd need a small scale though, because weight must be even. That trick and staggering weights (say 4g, 5g, 4g, 5g...) can spare you some expense. www.49ccscoot.com/faq/whatweight.html |
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Post by Happypancake! on May 21, 2018 21:24:45 GMT -5
Dr Pulleys will close your variator more due to their shape. 4.5g is a good start. Its what I use on my Mets and C3. Too heavy of a weight the variator will close to quickly at low rpm and will act sluggish. I hit 8000+ rpm by 25-30MPH then climbs. 9700@55+mph. Depending on your set up (body weight / contra spring) there is a lot to tune. Shaving 0.2gr off a slider can mean a lot. If you climb hills , then you will need a heavier contra spring to keep rpms up, not letting the clutch to open then maybe a upsize in slider weight.
To long of a belt also hurts. Stock or Gates is good. Polini belt i too long.
So, Tach is needed to tune.
Rollers/sliders should be clean and dry.
At high RPM, the stock clutch slips IMO. You can cut grooves in thee pads to help.
A ruck swing arm swap will GET you more top end due to the ability to fit a larger tire.
Keep up the good work.
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Post by Trigger1212 on May 21, 2018 22:39:50 GMT -5
Sounds like we will start with the Dr Pulley 4.5g then. Question, these are called "sliders" but when using the normal rollers there are other pieces called "sliders", v-shaped pieces in the variator that act as guides between the two halves. Do these need to be changed to the Dr Pulley variety or are my Polini ones just fine?
W
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Post by Trigger1212 on May 22, 2018 20:17:46 GMT -5
Purchased the Dr Pulley 4.5 g sliders. I'd like to get a digital tach to install before switching the sliders to see the difference in the rpm/speed/acceleration etc. Went on ebay to see what is out there, over 10,000 of them! The problem I have with the one's I've seen so far is that they are all "flat" mounts, including the Trail Tech recommended above.
I'm sure you are all familiar with the Metropolitian, I'd like to get a small tack that I can mount between the knees on on the front wind/knee guard or on the handle bars next to the speedo. For the vertical mount I'd like to have one that you can read by looking down. Mount on vertical surface and the face of the display faces up. Hope you get what I'm trying to explain.
And fairly small! Anyone have a suggestion that fits this description?
W
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Post by Happypancake! on May 22, 2018 20:26:01 GMT -5
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Post by Trigger1212 on Jul 6, 2018 22:03:26 GMT -5
Guys,
Well it's been awhile since an update, my apologies but been a bit hectic around here of late. And I'v been having too much fun riding' the Met to take the time to write!
Modifications/derestrictions since last update:
1. MANY thanks to Happypancake! HP had an old original Met I cam laying around and sent it to me along with a needle jet shim. Cam looked like it had very little wear on it, one bearing was very slightly "rough" feeling when spun. Took a chance and lubed it up and worked it by hand and it started to smooth up, no obvious visual pitting or anything so may have just been a little crud in there from storage. Installed it and when done did not feel like everything was lined up to my satisfaction so took it back apart and adjusted it by one tooth, I THINK it is lined up with TDC and the indicator on the flywheel now, not a real precise indicator not he flywheel the way its set up.
2. Purchased 38 and 40 main jet and larger idle jet (can't remember size right now, 35?), I installed the 40 main and as yet have not tried the 38.
3. Installed the needle jet shim, had to sand it a little thinner to be able to get the plastic locking "nut" to be able to fully engage. There is a spring in there but it ain't doing nothing as the needle is TIGHT in there!
4. Installed the MET I diaphragm spring.
5. Installed Polini variator with round polini weights, kept the original belt.
6. Installed TTO tach so I could see what the performance perimeters were.
So with the above mods the MET II will now do about 36 topped out, flat ground, NO wind.
7. Still felt loggy and at your suggestion I purchased a set of 4.5g slider weights. This has improved the low end pickup noticeably but may have actually dropped the top end 1 mph and it takes just a little longer to get those last couple mph on the top end.
I did mark the face fo the variator and rear clutch with a black marker and drove it with the original rollers and then the sliders. The marks were side by side so I could see if the belt was riding to different heights in the pully. They were virtually the same from what I could see.
There is definitely a difference in engine rpm/speed. With the rollers 30 mph was right around 7,000 to 7,050 rpm, with the sliders 30 mph is 7,350 to 7,400 rpm. The top rpm is about 8,200 before you start to hear the engine (ECU) restriction kick in.
It is definutly running richer, lost about 10-15 miles per tank or so. Should have pulled the spark plug to inspect the color before writing this but forgot....
NOTE: One thing I've noticed is that when you take off at full throttle and hit about 30 mph and roll back to about 3/4 cruising throttle there is a momentary hesitation in the engine. Then if you cruise steady at around 30 with steady throttle you can feel a very slight surging in the engine. If you listen closely you can hear the engine miss just a bit, but it is more a feel in the seat of your pants, can't see it on the speedo or tach, but it IS happening.
QUESTION: Could this be a function of the needle jet vacuum diaphragm action? Makes sense when quickly rolling back the throttle and maybe at the 30 mph range the vacuum/diaphram is just floating around a bit?
QUESTION: I still have the original exhaust on it, I know it has a different PN from a MET I so it probably has a restrictor in it somewhere. Does anyone have experience with putting a MET I exhaust on a MET II? Will it make much of a difference? Allow the engine to rev more quickly to the top end? I like the quiet exhaust so not interested in a loud aftermarket unit.
Finally, I have the MET I/Rukus final drive gear set, complete with all three pieces. Got it for a good price new off of ebay. I imagine it's good for a few mph at cruise and top end. In looking at the manual it appears to be a pretty straight forward swap with the exception of the drive shaft which has a bearing set in the case. The manual says to use a case puller to remove the drive shaft/bearing from the case with a "case puller". The instructions are not real clear but it looks like the case puller is actually PUSHING the drive shaft/bearing out of the case instead of pulling it. Am I correct in saying that in looking at the scooter from the rear the drive shaft is pushed out to the RIGHT?
Anyone have experience in changing out the final drive gears? PITA? Special tools needed or can you carefully drive out the drive shaft to the right with a dead blow hammer? Assuming the bearing can be pulled off the drive shaft with a 3 arm bearing puller if it's a bit tight?
Thanks for all the help, greatly appreciated.
When I get a moment I'll have to post some pics. Nice looking stock scooter, green and white. Thought about naming it "Sparty", daughter is going to Michigan State University/ The Spartans, but I do believe I will call it "The Green Hornet", yeah, I like that!
Cheers!
Wade
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