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Post by benhonda on Jan 23, 2020 0:56:58 GMT -5
I have tried putting 1500rpm clutch and contra spring on a tao tao 50cc in the past. The clutch springs went on fine, but the contra spring made the belt very hard to put back on (and on another bike impossible to put the belt on) and the performance didnt seem right...like the belt wasn't riding on the pulleys correctly anymore.
I know what the clutch springs do, and I understand basically the function of the contra spring is to push the pulley faces together...what I don't understand is why putting higher RPM clutch springs requires putting a stiffer contra spring?
Has anyone here put on JUST the higher rpm clutch springs...but kept the stock contra spring?
I have one custom trike (atv front end, scooter rear end) and another one in the works and since they will be used off road having better RPMs from a stand still is better. The current one already has a couple hours of off road use and it does fairly well considering I weigh 250 pounds. But there are times the engine bogs down under the strain (deep sand or steep enough hill) I have some Slider weights coming which I hope will help, and I'm not expecting to make it as capable as an ATV but if I could run higher RPM clutch springs without having to change the contra spring then I was thinking that could help with power output from a stop or when in sand/on a hill.
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Rune 75
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 441
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Post by Rune 75 on Jan 23, 2020 4:32:25 GMT -5
1:I know what the clutch springs do, and I understand basically the function of the contra spring is to push the pulley faces together... 2:What I don't understand is why putting higher RPM clutch springs requires putting a stiffer contra spring? 3:Has anyone here put on JUST the higher rpm clutch springs...but kept the stock contra spring? [/div][/quote] 1: you are right 2: It doesn't 3: Yes many times, it works as it's supposed to
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Post by aeroxbud on Jan 23, 2020 7:25:21 GMT -5
You only really need to change the contra spring if the belt is slipping.
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Post by Zino on Jan 23, 2020 9:07:03 GMT -5
1:I know what the clutch springs do, and I understand basically the function of the contra spring is to push the pulley faces together... 2:What I don't understand is why putting higher RPM clutch springs requires putting a stiffer contra spring? 3:Has anyone here put on JUST the higher rpm clutch springs...but kept the stock contra spring? 1 Contra spring is for down shift when you go off the throttle and to keep from belt slipping if you go to heavy alll you really do is wear out belts faster 2 Stiffer Clutch Springs are so your engine spins up higher so you get good takeoff . When you go to stiffer contra spring it makes your variator weights act lighter because they have to spin at a higher rpm to over come the Contra spring and start shifting . So when you need higher rpms going to smaller variator weights is the preffered way to raise rpms because when you go to a stiffer contra spring your belts wear faster. 3 Yes Here is the way I look at it Broadly I only Change the Contra if I have Belt slip . The variator weights coming in smaller increments and are easier to dial in to the power band .I set them for the lightest ones that give me full belt travel and the best acceleration. Clutch spring I just take the lightest tension one that give me good takeoff with no pause
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Post by benhonda on Jan 23, 2020 20:35:40 GMT -5
Thanks guys, that info helps This weekend I will put the slider weights on this trike, and hopefully have enough time to build the second trike. The second scooter is running and the kawasaki frame is stripped...just have to attach the 2 together. I think stiffer clutch springs will help these trikes. Knowing that I can run them without having to change the contra springs makes it worth testing out.
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Post by snaker on Jan 23, 2020 21:45:32 GMT -5
When your messing around with the contra spring and the clutch springs you do have to abide by the rule that :
1.The clutch must engage before the CVT begins upshifting.
Or in other words:
2. The CVT shouldn't upshift before the clutch engages.
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Post by aeroxbud on Jan 24, 2020 1:49:22 GMT -5
Thanks guys, that info helps This weekend I will put the slider weights on this trike, and hopefully have enough time to build the second trike. The second scooter is running and the kawasaki frame is stripped...just have to attach the 2 together. I think stiffer clutch springs will help these trikes. Knowing that I can run them without having to change the contra springs makes it worth testing out. As Guy Martin says, that smells of hospital! 👍 But I still want a go. 😁
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Rune 75
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 441
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Post by Rune 75 on Jan 24, 2020 4:54:43 GMT -5
To improve take off/take off rpm the easy way is to shim the variator boss a couple of mm, or replace it with a longer one. This will hurt top speed a bit, just so you are aware.
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Post by Zino on Jan 24, 2020 9:36:09 GMT -5
Rune and Snake are basically talking about the same thing . Taking full advantage of pulleys gear ratios .
Rune is talking about getting the belt to sit as low as possible so the front pulley is in as small gear as possible .
Snake is making sure that the front pulley stays small as long as possible till the clutch engages ,otherwise you start in second second gear if you let the clutch engage after the variator weights start pulling the belt up the front pulley .
Lightening the variator weights will mitigate this by having the variator shift after the clutch engages.
Your Butt Dyno will be able to Dial this in if you dont want to take the cvt cover off watch it happen shut by which set up pulls strongest from take off .
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Post by benhonda on Jan 24, 2020 21:07:47 GMT -5
Thanks guys, that info helps This weekend I will put the slider weights on this trike, and hopefully have enough time to build the second trike. The second scooter is running and the kawasaki frame is stripped...just have to attach the 2 together. I think stiffer clutch springs will help these trikes. Knowing that I can run them without having to change the contra springs makes it worth testing out. As Guy Martin says, that smells of hospital! 👍 But I still want a go. 😁 Thanks...she actually handles pretty well. It will lift a tire when you turn at slow speeds, but it doesn't do it enough to tip over. And the faster you are going the more stable it gets. But you can lean hard to one side while opening up the throttle and get a front tire off the ground and hold it like that at 20mph.
The second ATV trike is 80% complete. Frames are welded together, just have to clean the carb again, run the wires how I want them and put the front body panels on.
Hopefully tomorrow I will have time to finish building the second trike and put the new slider weights in the green one. After that, I will experiment with stiffer clutch springs and maybe shimming the variator...though I have tried that once in the past and it made the starter wheel bind against the kick starter.
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Post by Zino on Jan 24, 2020 23:18:43 GMT -5
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Post by benhonda on Jan 25, 2020 17:36:28 GMT -5
Thing One and Thing Two are basically done, both running/driving. I did put the new sliders into the green one, and this raised rpms's and gained a smidge of acceleration. But with the cover off I noticed that the belt was riding low on the clutch pulley. I happen to have a spare tao tao belt and threw it on and it rides much closer to the top of the pulley...so someone may have put the wrong belt on at some point...either that or the belt was just that worn down. I still want more bottom end power...I thought I had some 1500 rpm springs on hand but looks like I will have to buy some. I still have wire management to do on the red one, and once a new battery arrives I will add a battery box. Anyway, here are the machines in question:
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Post by Zino on Jan 25, 2020 19:04:35 GMT -5
Nice lookin Toyz
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Post by ThaiGyro on Jan 28, 2020 7:53:59 GMT -5
I see...a CR500 in your future, with a fatty rear.
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Post by benhonda on Jan 28, 2020 17:31:35 GMT -5
I see...a CR500 in your future, with a fatty rear. Not unless I find one for around $50. I built both of those rigs for about $150 each. Getting any kind of engine with some real power could easily cost more than what I spent to build these. Plus, if these had a powerful engine, the rest of the frame would be a problem. My welding skills and the old frames/tires I have used aren't a problem since they can only go 30mph. Add speed, and you would have to install new bushings and bearings into those old atv frames as well as put newer tires on them.
But I am keeping my eye out for a 150cc scooter. I did have one I bought 2+ years ago for cheap. It certainly had speed and power that would be better suited for an ATV trike conversion. There just aren't a lot of 150cc scooters around here.
And I have a 80cc BBK that I think will be going on the green trike.
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