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Post by hippo008 on Nov 21, 2020 15:52:24 GMT -5
THE DAY HAS COME! I finally mounted the unfinished radiator cowling today with all the fixins'. Pump, hoses, Spall Puller Fan, lights, lighting relay, pump and fan controlls, finished wiring harness and custom pipe bracket. She started right up first kick. I decided enough was enough and this bad boy was hitting the road TODAY at any cost. Turns out all it cost me was my secondary shop fan that fell on my head while I was in my stool. I lost her to an angry javelin toss across the yard. My initial plan with a whole bunch of funky radiator hoses and S bends was just not fitting right. I ended up swapping one of the 90° heater hose fittings for a straight fitting of the same size. It allowed just enough clearance to fit the radiator no problem. I also cut the hole in the cowl for the radiator fill cap. It can only be removed with the headset turned all the way to the right but thats fine with me. It doesn't rub or interfere with any of the plastics. I need to get acoolant expansion tank to catch any overflow coolant. After a bunch of fuss with the radiator fan and the temperature switch just not working I opted to use a fan controlled by a switch. I wired it up right next to the pump switch. With the fan and pump running I still have just enough voltage for charging at idle which I am very pleased with. The scoot is clearly not tuned right. The 100 main jet didn't feel snappy and the CHT went up to 280° at one point. Way too hot for a LC build, even a shotty one like mine . I swapped in a 113 main jet and now I am bogging at WOT. I'm thinking ill end up at around a 108 mainjet and the needle clip smack dab in the middle. I rode it (without plates ) around the neighborhood and it felt OK. Clearly needs to be dialed in. However it does sound like a small MX bike and thats tight as hell. I added a photo of the cowling.
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Post by aeroxbud on Nov 21, 2020 16:27:47 GMT -5
It lives 👍👍
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Post by hippo008 on Nov 22, 2020 11:33:37 GMT -5
I swapped in 4g roller weights and a 108 main jet. Its still burbling a little bit WOT so I'm thinking I need to go down maybe 1 size. The 4g weights made a big difference. My RPMS went from 8500 to 10,000 and the scoot really came alive. Im seeing CHT of about 190~ after WOT riding. I think I need to fill up the radiator a bit more for better cooling.
Im having a hard time tuning the idle circuit and air mixture. My idle sounds good at about 1500~ RPM. Not stumbling or anything. The scooter doesn't die or have hard starts. However after quick throttle blips the scooter doesn't want to quickly return to idle. It hangs a little bit.
Anybody have any advice on carb tuning idle and idle mixture?
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Post by 190mech on Nov 22, 2020 15:25:59 GMT -5
If it hangs,the idle mixture is lean,,try richening it with the screw,if that doesnt help put a bigger pilot jet in..An air leak can cause a hanging idle too.
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Post by hippo008 on Nov 25, 2020 13:06:39 GMT -5
I've been messing with the idle mixture and its gotten snappier. Right now I'm running a pod filter. I'm thinking I should swap my air box back on for tuning.
The challenge I'm currently having is where to mount it. On the Roughhouse frame there is not much room between the bottom of the rear plastic and the engine case. Its a very tight fit to get the air box in there. I'm not sure where else I could put the thing.
I have an old GoPro laying around. Would anybody be interested in some riding or building videos? I've been kicking around the idea of making a video about building PGO motors. There's not much documentation available for the PGO long case, especially a built one.
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Post by aeroxbud on Nov 25, 2020 15:03:50 GMT -5
I watch way too many videos! It's always good to help other people, and let them see what's possible.
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Post by hippo008 on Nov 25, 2020 16:39:08 GMT -5
I did a little carb tuning this afternoon. I swapped in a 106 main jet down from 108. I also raised the clip to the middle position and put in a 48 pilot jet.
While On the previous setup (108 main, 45 pilot, 2nd clip up) I took a test ride of about 2 miles. The road itself is winding and hilly so I really put the motor through it’s paces. I noticed a few things. The motor revs out to 12,000 RPM which seems high for this setup? Polini Corsa’s I’ve heard want to live right around the 10,000RPM range not 12,000. Maybe go up to 5g weights again?
cylinder head temperatures got very high on the ride this time. Up to 270F this time! That seems very hot for a liquid cooled cylinder. On the way back the idle started to hang, the bike didn’t want to drop below 4000RPM even with the idle set at 1600RPM. After swapping In the larger pilot jet the idle still hangs but only sometimes. The bike has a normal idle speed of about 1600RPM. I feel like I’m doing something wrong with the mixture screw. Turning it in richens the mixture while turning it out leans it out right? Am I being a moron? Somebody let me know
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Post by aeroxbud on Nov 25, 2020 16:54:37 GMT -5
Yep in richer. Out leaner.
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Post by hippo008 on Dec 2, 2020 21:37:57 GMT -5
A package arrived from Canada today and that can only mean one thing, scooter parts! I ordered up a medium torque spring from Stage6, a Stage6 mini fuel gauge, a Polini 90° air filter, some variator spacers and a ignition cover for a Zuma. Couldn't find a PGO one without buying a whole new lock cylinder so this works fine. I'm really excited for this fuel gauge. I know I don't necessarily need one but I really like the convenience factor. I'll post a short video about the install. I couldn't find a good one in English on YouTube.
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Post by hippo008 on Dec 3, 2020 19:52:38 GMT -5
Here's the installation video
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Post by patrickdale on Dec 18, 2020 19:54:52 GMT -5
A package arrived from Canada today and that can only mean one thing, scooter parts! I ordered up a medium torque spring from Stage6, a Stage6 mini fuel gauge, a Polini 90° air filter, some variator spacers and a ignition cover for a Zuma. Couldn't find a PGO one without buying a whole new lock cylinder so this works fine. I'm really excited for this fuel gauge. I know I don't necessarily need one but I really like the convenience factor. I'll post a short video about the install. I couldn't find a good one in English on YouTube.
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Post by repherence2 on Dec 18, 2020 20:28:36 GMT -5
I've been trying to cleanup the wiring and get organized. I've been swapping all the spade connectors with automotive disconnects wherever I can. I made the little plug and harness for the water pump & fan switch today. A word about PGO and liquid cooled builds. Just don't do it. Im about at my wits end with this damn PGO scooter and motor. Its not a bad platform at all and things are well made but parts are a huge pain in the ass. Things will be listed as fitting and won't. Things that aren't even listed for the PGO motor or scooter will work just fine. Seemingly nobody knows what's going on in terms of aftermarket parts. Go get a Yamaha Jog/Zuma clone or Honda clone and be done with it. Just mounting this exhaust that is listed as being functional and fitting has taken weeks. I've had to tech myself CAD, basic welding and purchased all sorts of tools I dont need just to get the pipe to sort of fit correctly. If you go PGO avoid anything that isn't strictly listed for the scooter and other people have used it. As for liquid cooled swaps do not do what I am doing with this custom panel. Its such a colossal pain in the rear im close to scrapping the whole thing and just going air-cooled. Absolutely nothing works the way it was intended. The radiator cowl doesn't fit. Hoses constantly leak. The pump gets too close to the pipe and the bottom half of it melts out. Its just not worth the extra hassle. If I could go back I would have avoided all of this nonsense and just mounted the radiator inside the kick panel like everybody else. Way easier to install and finish. Better yet I would have never gone LC at all and went right back to air cooled aluminum cylinders and never looked back. Right now the current plan is to finish the build and sell this thing cheap to get a Yamaha Jog and do a 90cc swap into that. Im not even interested in riding the Roughhouse at this point. With 25 years of parts development and thousands upon thousands of builds in the Jog you just can't go wrong. There's a 90cc 1996 Jog from the Dominican Republic near me for $1500. Ill just buy that and sunset this damn Roughhouse as quickly as I can Im at that last 10% of the build that takes 90% of the effort and time. Boy am I tired of looking at this thing. My understanding of the Genuine Roughhouse and the Genuine Buddy is that it uses Minarelli bores with a honda type transmission components. This is just the conclusion i came to from researching modified parts for the Roughhouse/Buddy platform.
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Post by wiscootsin on Dec 21, 2020 14:37:35 GMT -5
My understanding of the Genuine Roughhouse and the Genuine Buddy is that it uses Minarelli bores with a honda type transmission components. This is just the conclusion i came to from researching modified parts for the Roughhouse/Buddy platform.
I recently put the variator ramp plate off a genuine roughhouse 50 onto a variated Honda AF05 engine. The roughouse one has teeth and honda doesn't, but still fit and works.
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Post by hippo008 on Dec 24, 2020 19:59:20 GMT -5
My understanding of the Genuine Roughhouse and the Genuine Buddy is that it uses Minarelli bores with a honda type transmission components. This is just the conclusion i came to from researching modified parts for the Roughhouse/Buddy platform. So this is only partially true. The PGO motor in the Genuine Roughhouse is a weird bastard child of a motor. Be warned about online parts lists for these motors. Ive used parts that are listed as compatible but absolutely did not work. Ive learned the hard way (See, money and time) what fits on these things. Heres a list for you. - Cylinder: Any minarelli cylinder will mate up to the PGO motor without serious modification.
- Crankshaft: Only PGO specific cranks work in this motor. There are not many aftermarket cranks made for the PGO motors. Jasil and Stage6 are the only ones I know of. No stroker cranks. It is however possible to use a Yamaha crankshaft in these motors IF you use bearings and seals to accommodate the different output shaft sizes. NTN sells the bearings for this job.
- Reeds: Only PGO reed cages will work. However any Yamaha Zuma reed petals will fit onto the PGO cage.
- Carburetor: Only PGO specific carbs work unless you use a Malossi PGO to boot adapter. Then any booted carb will work.
- Variator: Only specific PGO parts work reliably here. SOME 139QMB (for what reason I dont know) will fit.
- Drive Face: Dio and PGO drive faces work. NCY sells the only one I have tested and know works.
- Belt: PGO Belt only. Malossi and Dayco make performance Kevlar belts.
- Rear pully: PGO OEM only. Supposedly Malossi makes an aftermarket one but I havent seen it.
- Secondary Slider: NCY & Malossi both make quality secondary sliders. A worthwhile pickup.
- Contra Springs: 139QMB contra springs work. So will some Piaggio and GY6 stuff.
- Clutch: Any 107mm clutch will work. I use a Polini 4Race clutch. 139QMB clutches also fit.
- Clutch Bell: PGO and Honda bells work. I use a 107mm NCY Dio bell. Works a treat.
Sorry about this list. The list tool is not very good. Something happened half way through and I couldnt fix it. Sorry! One last thing about PGO motors. I like the Roughhouse quite a bit. Its a great scooter with quality parts. It especially great after some suspension changes and the low profile seat. The NCY forks and aftermarket rear shock lover the ride like 3"~ and the seat lowers the rider another 2" or so. It made a word of difference with handling and cornering. However, I really hate how hard parts are for this thing. With a Zuma, Prebug, Dio, Elite SR, heck even the Honda Motocompo, there is better documentation and parts available. Finding aftermarket parts that work the first time has been a BIG expense both monetarily and time wise.
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Post by 808ministroke on Jan 1, 2021 4:55:28 GMT -5
My understanding of the Genuine Roughhouse and the Genuine Buddy is that it uses Minarelli bores with a honda type transmission components. This is just the conclusion i came to from researching modified parts for the Roughhouse/Buddy platform. So this is only partially true. The PGO motor in the Genuine Roughhouse is a weird bastard child of a motor. Be warned about online parts lists for these motors. Ive used parts that are listed as compatible but absolutely did not work. Ive learned the hard way (See, money and time) what fits on these things. Heres a list for you. - Cylinder: Any minarelli cylinder will mate up to the PGO motor without serious modification.
- Crankshaft: Only PGO specific cranks work in this motor. There are not many aftermarket cranks made for the PGO motors. Jasil and Stage6 are the only ones I know of. No stroker cranks. It is however possible to use a Yamaha crankshaft in these motors IF you use bearings and seals to accommodate the different output shaft sizes. NTN sells the bearings for this job.
- Reeds: Only PGO reed cages will work. However any Yamaha Zuma reed petals will fit onto the PGO cage.
- Carburetor: Only PGO specific carbs work unless you use a Malossi PGO to boot adapter. Then any booted carb will work.
- Variator: Only specific PGO parts work reliably here. SOME 139QMB (for what reason I dont know) will fit.
- Drive Face: Dio and PGO drive faces work. NCY sells the only one I have tested and know works.
- Belt: PGO Belt only. Malossi and Dayco make performance Kevlar belts.
- Rear pully: PGO OEM only. Supposedly Malossi makes an aftermarket one but I havent seen it.
- Secondary Slider: NCY & Malossi both make quality secondary sliders. A worthwhile pickup.
- Contra Springs: 139QMB contra springs work. So will some Piaggio and GY6 stuff.
- Clutch: Any 107mm clutch will work. I use a Polini 4Race clutch. 139QMB clutches also fit.
- Clutch Bell: PGO and Honda bells work. I use a 107mm NCY Dio bell. Works a treat.
Sorry about this list. The list tool is not very good. Something happened half way through and I couldnt fix it. Sorry! One last thing about PGO motors. I like the Roughhouse quite a bit. Its a great scooter with quality parts. It especially great after some suspension changes and the low profile seat. The NCY forks and aftermarket rear shock lover the ride like 3"~ and the seat lowers the rider another 2" or so. It made a word of difference with handling and cornering. However, I really hate how hard parts are for this thing. With a Zuma, Prebug, Dio, Elite SR, heck even the Honda Motocompo, there is better documentation and parts available. Finding aftermarket parts that work the first time has been a BIG expense both monetarily and time wise. Interesting stuff It seems those style engines have become more popular on the 2 stroke moped scene over here as Honda style 2 strokes are no longer being Built-in available brand new in the US same with miniral I to stroke The only new off the lot moped I know that you can buy that is a 2 stroke would be from this brand I never went is deep into a dive as you had to go down the rabbit hole, But from what I was able to gather from checking out quite a few of these is that the quality is definitely A whole level or 2 above a Chinese built I actually thought I recall reading that these engines or mopeds were either built or assembled in Chicago.? Anyways here's a Trivia question for you WHAT DOES PGO, STAND FOR??? ... ... GIVE UP, I RECALL THAT THEY WERE BRANDED PGO AS A WAY TO SOUND LIKE PIAGGIO! LOL. for real, p.g.o - pia.g.o
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