kosmos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 108
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Post by kosmos on May 26, 2023 4:19:22 GMT -5
Hey
I just got a new belt for my Honda elite 01' and am using the stock transmission, and instead of buying from Honda, I bought a Bando belt because it was all I found on ebay. Came in, it says Made in Japan on it. I installed it and as I wrapped it around the rear pulley, fully on it and was putting it over the drive boss, the belt was tighter than I ever remember on a stock belt. I had to muscle it on, just a little but, I've never had a belt that fit any tighter on this bike, than "like a glove" tight. As in, it wouldn't cut your blood flow off if it was a shirt or something you was putting on.
I'd changed a couple things, aluminum ligthtened variator front half, and tightened the springs in my adjustable clutch probably 2-3mm. I'd used a lightened front half variator thing before and I never noticed this much of a change.. But the CVT ran much different. Didn't seem like it was working quit like how its supposed to.
I took everything back off to check stuff. I noticed the variator slide glides were getting dug into a little bit. Like shiny and a little gouge in them. You could tell it was more wear than they had had for the previous few hundred miles I've been riding it and changing roller weights.
Have any of you all ever used a bit tight of a belt like that? Did it do ok did it work out thousands of miles later? Did you ever notice any wear like this from it? I'm afraid to use it because I had something like this with another chinese scooter that blew rear pulley seals, broke through those variator slide guides and busted the variators, busted belts. And they weren't that very tight. I'm just afraid to run it like this. I am going to go and test it out again tomorrow for a 10 mile or so test drive and see if it gets worse. I put everything to stock and just trying out this new belt. Just seems like this digging that I've not had over the past will turn into a broke variator slide guide then some metal on metal contact and busted CVT; belt and etc.
Just looking for some other experience with this and know what to think about this wear on the guides. thanks
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Post by oldgeek on May 26, 2023 6:40:37 GMT -5
If the metal rails on the variator are being gouged, then your plastic slides are worn through allowing the metal ramp plate to dig into the variator rails. Pull the plastic guides out and inspect them closely.
Hard to say about the belt, match it up to the old one, if it is considerably shorter then you likely have the wrong belt. A belt that is too short will usually affect your launch and top speed.
You might need to service the rear pulley if it is not operating smoothly.
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Post by snaker on May 26, 2023 9:25:01 GMT -5
Take 3 photo's of the back side of the driven pulley (opposite side away from drive pulley) specifically showing the belt seated into the driven pulley and post. A side profile view to show if the belt is protruding out of the pulley and how much.
All static, not running:
1. With the belt wrapped around the driven pulley and not yet installed on the drive pulley.
2. During installation when the drive pulley fixed sheave is still off and the belt is resting on the boss
3. The CVT fully assembled and ready to run.
Be sure to exercise, as in rotating the CVT, preferably after spinning it up or riding around the block.
The belt is grippy and won't be in a normal operating position when installed.
If it can't be run, then at least rotate the pulleys a dozen plus rotations to get a normal seat.
Do in which ever order works best.
The point is to see where the belt is positioned in the driven pulley at those 3 stages and too see how the belt is pulled into the driven as it is installed.
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kosmos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 108
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Post by kosmos on May 26, 2023 13:50:51 GMT -5
If the metal rails on the variator are being gouged, then your plastic slides are worn through allowing the metal ramp plate to dig into the variator rails. Pull the plastic guides out and inspect them closely. Hard to say about the belt, match it up to the old one, if it is considerably shorter then you likely have the wrong belt. A belt that is too short will usually affect your launch and top speed. You might need to service the rear pulley if it is not operating smoothly. the variator isn't damaged, yet. what I notice is the plastic slide guides have some small grooves getting dug into them; they are shiny on the side that the variator is pushing against, on all of them. they're shiny and dug into a tiny bit, after I took it for a 5 mile ride. Before, I never noticed any sort of shininess or tiny gouges into them over the past 500 miles as I've been changing out roller weights and checking it when I take it off to inspect it or ever before, with the stock honda belt. This is a Bando made in Japan belt with the same part number on it. I dont ever remember before the belt, when I put it on new, being this tough to put on. Take 3 photo's of the back side of the driven pulley (opposite side away from drive pulley) specifically showing the belt seated into the driven pulley and post. A side profile view to show if the belt is protruding out of the pulley and how much. All static, not running: 1. With the belt wrapped around the driven pulley and not yet installed on the drive pulley. 2. During installation when the drive pulley fixed sheave is still off and the belt is resting on the boss 3. The CVT fully assembled and ready to run. Be sure to exercise, as in rotating the CVT, preferably after spinning it up or riding around the block. The belt is grippy and won't be in a normal operating position when installed. If it can't be run, then at least rotate the pulleys a dozen plus rotations to get a normal seat. Do in which ever order works best. The point is to see where the belt is positioned in the driven pulley at those 3 stages and too see how the belt is pulled into the driven as it is installed. The way I use to check this is to see how the belt fits on. It always with a Honda belt, slips on and fits "like a glove"; I don't have to muscle it to get it on. This one slipped over the crankshaft arm fine but then when I had to get it over the drive boss, it was a little bit tough and I had to grab it and use my arm to muscle it on. Not terribly tough but I use that like a glove term to describe it because that is how it is compared to for the Honda belts compared to this which I would describe as, it would cut your blood flow off - tight. Also the driven pulley didn't have busted seals and was functioning correctly. but that is something i worry about getting blown since these are the only 2 give spots that seals in side the CVT system; variator plastic slide guides and the driven pulleys moving pulley half seals. What I'm asking, is how does everyone elses belts fit? and have you ever had any problems out of them if they were this tight? Does your new belts slip on 'like a glove', loose, or tight enough to cut the blood flow off? If you've ever had a CVT busting belts or variators or pulleys busting, did you remember having a belt that was tight? Have you ever noticed any shiny digging in spots on the variator's plastic slide guides in any situation, tight belts or the normal 'like a glove' fit belts? I'm defining too tight as cuts off blood flow compared to normal as fits like a glove. ... Or am I just becoming forgetful, I've had my scooter parked for a couple of years, about something that normally happens. I'm pretty sure its not, but I'm just trying to see others experiences, I think it will progess worse and end up cracking through those plastic variator slide guides, then breaking the variator/belt etc. but what are anyone elses experiences. I took it for another 5 mile ride and it ran fine after I readjusted the 3 clutch springs back to how it was before. So I'm going to put the lightened CVT part back on I bought and when I do I'll check the parts again and see how it looks now. |
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Post by geoffh on May 26, 2023 14:50:03 GMT -5
It does sound like the wrong belt has been supplied,I have had a few problems with vendors who are sure the belt "fits" which it does but its the wrong size, I would bite the bullet and buy OE rather than risk the expense of failure miles from home.
Geoff
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Post by John Kiniston on May 26, 2023 22:22:22 GMT -5
I recommend rolling out each belt to measure them and see just how different they are.
I’ve run belts of different lengths on my Zuma ranging from like 745-780mm, I’m currently running 780mm which gives me the most travel on the variator face.
Short belts are hard to get on.
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Post by Zino on May 30, 2023 21:20:44 GMT -5
I recommend rolling out each belt to measure them and see just how different they are. I’ve run belts of different lengths on my Zuma ranging from like 745-780mm, I’m currently running 780mm which gives me the most travel on the variator face. Short belts are hard to get on. what belt brand are you running others may want to copy you |
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kosmos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 108
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Post by kosmos on May 31, 2023 0:44:35 GMT -5
I went out tonight and took the cvt apart and checked everything. The plastic guides didn't seem too very scuffed up if any much more, the belt seemed to of gotten maybe a little bit of slack, the tight belt would wear the width down quicker too. So I'm gonna leave it and run with it. Im using polini plastic guides, and they only have a little nick you can hardly tell with something thin and plastic, not a knife but.. Overall not much if anymore damage was had over the last 6 miles. I'll recheck it again in about 100 miles and see. If it tears stuff up, I've got replacement parts. Might tear up my crankshaft since I went ahead and put on the aluminum drive side face part I got but, oh well. I have another that tore one up before, tore off the splines but it never damaged the aluminum thing if anything just barely scuffed it up and only in places. Fits my crank now just fine. The cranks got a wobble in it anyway (from impact wrenching it) and I need to replace it anyway sometime.
But the belt fits on overall like it goes over the crankshaft arm easy but then it was at first had to be muscled up over the drive boss, but now it starts easy then takes a little bit of muscle to roll it on over the rest of the way. I wouldn't suggest this without a good set of plastic slide guides and careful monitoring. I'll update this again in 100 miles and see how the belt wears and what happens.
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kosmos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 108
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Post by kosmos on Jun 1, 2023 13:25:17 GMT -5
On my scooter since I've put on a new belt and switched to a lightened front half pulley (aluminum), I've had higher rpms, but a slower takeoff and less pull up hills. Tends to drop speed sooner too up any hills. Top speed is still around what it was like before. It tends to rev up to a higher rpm, no rpm gauge just by sound, when I get going.
Should I maybe be running a bigger contra spring in it? its stock motor, Keli variator, 5.5 gram roller weights, and a black koso i believe 1000 rpm spring in it.
I tightened my clutch springs on the adjustable clutch and did all the other mods at the same time, belt and aluminum front pulley half, and I had almost no torque on takeoff. i switched the springs tension back and it takes off better now but. My revs get real high and faster, same around top speed but I lose speed on hills faster, and have less pull up hills, like this big gravel hill Ive been riding up and down.
Should I up my contra spring? or maybe put heavier weights in the variator? What kind of contra spring should I use on a stock motor with aftermarket variator, should I use a bigger one?
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Post by rollingbender on Jun 1, 2023 14:25:58 GMT -5
Remember the Golden Rule of scooter tuning…
“One thing at a time”
…so that you know what works and what does not.
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kosmos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 108
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Post by kosmos on Jun 1, 2023 15:13:22 GMT -5
Well you're right. But it wasnt a different part just a new belt. It's like starting over. Just looking for general experience about the contra spring though. I went out and upped my weights .5 a gram and it got up to higher top speeds, and better overall pulling like it was before I put on the lightened front pulley half. I found a new Odd thing, temps spiked up to 370 on the way back and wasn't stopping. I'm guessing that, no rpm gauge to go off, that I have higher RPM's and they're giving me hotter temperatures now. Wasn't hitting over 330 before.  Here's a pic of the slide guides. I wasn't recalling this before you know but, its not getting worse over the last 20 miles. Belts still a little struggle to get going over the drive boss but, at least I don't have to struggle to get it over the crank arm.   It just feels like a layer that I could peel off, like a small slice or sliver of difference. I'll keep this updated next time I change something or in a couple hundred more miles to see if there's any issues |
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Post by John Kiniston on Jun 1, 2023 20:38:08 GMT -5
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kosmos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 108
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Post by kosmos on Jun 2, 2023 10:33:08 GMT -5
i saw that bando belt for my scooter. thats what I got, same bag and everything.
Weird update. Temp spikes mentioned in the last reply I made. So I hunted that down.
I put the old belt back on. With the larger main jet 95 I put in, ran crappy, sounded like it was wanting to load up and backfire or something on me, same with the other the new belt, max temp of 296 the entire 8 mile ride. So I tried downjetting it back to the 92 I had in it before that was giving me fine temps. Guess what? 324 max temps...
The ONLY other difference; and I didn't even check or remember noticing the temps with the other New belt, was I changed the roller weights, up .5 a gram. Before, with the new belt, I didn't check the temps before I adjusted the roller weights, but I know that with the new setup, temps were getting up to the 370's using the new belt. I don't if any setup besides with that set of rollers and parts + new belt what temps it gave me.
So pretty certain I've narrowed it down to the new belt, only thing I could do is to lighten the rollers now, because they seem like they need it and see if any temps change using my old belt. Theres nothing else that really explain it. I checked the exhaust for leaks and its fine. I did lose about 4-5mph using the old belt too as well.
Problem is when I use the new belt, and get better top speed, with the 92 mj my temps are spiking too high, and with the 95 mj, I lose my top speed, probably even lower than it is using this 92 mj / old belt combo. Doesn't even sound right, seems that it wants to backfire.
Solution? Idk. Blame the new belt? Blame the cheap 95 chinese mainjet that I've got? Wouldn't seem like the mj would change with higher rpms. Maybe swapping carburetor anyway, getting a honda brand belt and seeing if either can work with the new belt and everything. Maybe swapping the rollers back lighter again with the old belt will give me back some mph. But I think im losing not only top speed but torque up hills with this old belt. All this seems like it would fit better in another topic maybe a build topic for all these odd things Im having trouble with.
The difference between the old- Honda made belt and the new one, the Bando made in Japan belt when sliding it on is, the Honda just 'fits like a glove' it slips on and theres no struggle to get it over the drive boss. The new belt, I have to fight it, a little bit to slide it on the drive boss, get it started is easy but then i have to strong arm it on there.
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Post by John Kiniston on Jun 2, 2023 11:21:39 GMT -5
Have you rolled out and measured the belts to see what the difference is between the too tight and ok belts yet?
The one I linked is 780mm, it should be longer than your stock.
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kosmos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 108
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Post by kosmos on Jun 2, 2023 11:32:53 GMT -5
Its just barely a difference. I'm going by the feel. Ive NEVER ever rememebered the stock belt being this hard to get over the drive boss. But and old belt Could dig down further in the rear pulley possibly negating some of the length between the two pulleys. Have an old belt out there sitting there, and the new ones off, let me go and check it..
Ok, Bando Made in Japan belt measures 25 3/4"
Honda bando belt measures 25 7/8"
I just usually check by feel, and thats what I've found before was if they didnt fit like a glove, last time I had a problem with my CVT's, it must of been a bit tighter, than this current new bando made in japan one cause it blew out the plastic slide guides right after I replaced the driven pulley from before, then they would wear out CVT parts; plastic slide guides then tear up the variator, or driven pulley seals.
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