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Post by 808ministroke on Jan 7, 2022 2:21:27 GMT -5
So I Abused my stage 6 read setup set up to the point We're just keeps chipping reeds and needs to be replaced This is for my malosi mhr water cooled 86C (Piaggio) .
I was gonna go with v force like I have for my minarelli but they are not in stock.
I am looking into polini big Evo reeds or mallosi v11 (v16?) both of which require the intake to be modified and opened up.
anyone think it would be worth it open er up to accept bigger 2 pedal reed cages or would they still not flow as good as v force reeds would?
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Post by chadbullet on Jan 7, 2022 10:37:52 GMT -5
Most of what I've come across for the vforce is that they offer little to no performance advantage on these smaller engines. One such example: scooterforum.net/threads/vl14-vs-stage6-v-force.149526/Also, I've read that the reeds are prone to failing with even the slightest backfire, and replacing broken reeds in these is so expensive. Personally, based on the anecdotal information from random people on the internet, I'd lean towards whatever option is more affordable between the Polini and Malossi options. |
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Post by ThaiGyro on Jan 9, 2022 0:10:38 GMT -5
808...(I have had mini-strokes); My experience with reeds and reed blocks is quite long. Not to say great... In the 70's, we used OEM Yamaha and Honda stainless reeds, but tended to modify the block thickness to increase/decrease case volume a tiny bit. Reed efficiency was only made better by "honing" a reed by hand to give an "early" or later bend curve. That was a hyper tune to match, uhhh, the overall tune of the engine. Ignition timing, chamber scavenge, and rpm curves...Haha, EASY? As far as your issues with breaking? Stainless is always more reliable. Carbon fiber seems like new joo-joo magic, but you must remember...those fibers are bonded in epoxy. Plastic! Easy to form and engineer for initial use. No bueno for reliability. Edges crack without good overlap of the cage. Actually, they crack earlier than stainless any way. The answer? Replace often and/or buy cheaper stainless reeds and learn to massage them. It is not an easy art form, but it can make POWAAAA! I think it is like heat cycles in a road race tire. Break in a bit, get it on for a while then get fresh ones. No easy answer. Heat cycles and bending exercises. Better when young.
I have hours of potential conversation material, if you dare...great untapped subject!
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Post by 808ministroke on Jan 9, 2022 21:42:23 GMT -5
808...(I have had mini-strokes); My experience with reeds and reed blocks is quite long. Not to say great... In the 70's, we used OEM Yamaha and Honda stainless reeds, but tended to modify the block thickness to increase/decrease case volume a tiny bit. Reed efficiency was only made better by "honing" a reed by hand to give an "early" or later bend curve. That was a hyper tune to match, uhhh, the overall tune of the engine. Ignition timing, chamber scavenge, and rpm curves...Haha, EASY? As far as your issues with breaking? Stainless is always more reliable. Carbon fiber seems like new joo-joo magic, but you must remember...those fibers are bonded in epoxy. Plastic! Easy to form and engineer for initial use. No bueno for reliability. Edges crack without good overlap of the cage. Actually, they crack earlier than stainless any way. The answer? Replace often and/or buy cheaper stainless reeds and learn to massage them. It is not an easy art form, but it can make POWAAAA! I think it is like heat cycles in a road race tire. Break in a bit, get it on for a while then get fresh ones. No easy answer. Heat cycles and bending exercises. Better when young.
I have hours of potential conversation material, if you dare...great untapped subject!
No please continue I would love to hear what you have to say all of it even the rants. the stage six cage came with a synthetic coat vitron or something any way it started peeling off after less than a week of use! so I peeled the rest of it off before it end up on my piston or worse and sanded the mating surface to were the reeds now just sat against bare metal, I always wondered why high quality reeds like v force came in plastic now I know, must be because carbon fiber ( plastic) reeds need to slap against something plastic Atwell or they will break. what I was more curious about wasn't durability but what set up would give me more performance and fill cylinder better. vforce claims to add 30% of flow diameter and doesn't need to modify the intake. I know with porting the bigger the ports doesn't always mean better so would having a bigger opening at the inake would also lower the velocity so would the trade off be worth it ? |
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Post by Lucass2T on Jan 10, 2022 6:18:30 GMT -5
V-force has twice the petals compared to the stock cage. More petals means they don't have to open as far as with the stock one. This is where V-force says the advantages are. What they exactly are Im not sure, more flow? more responsive? less prone to cracks/breaking? more tunable (various petal thicknessess and weave patterns)? Polini has 2 big ones? Just like the Malossi VL12. Top performances also carries v-force'ish reeds btw.  |
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Post by fly on Jan 13, 2022 13:41:24 GMT -5
I have been running vforce3 reeds for about 8 years. Mine are Top Performances branded, but all the vforce3 cages across like S6, TP, straight moto tassarini, etc are the same thing.
I actually pulled my cage not long ago, the reeds look brand new. Which is cool, because it would indeed be about half the cost of the whole package to replace them.
The reeds in the vforce3 setup don't have to open as far for the same flow, as mentioned. The theory is this means the distance/time from open to close of the petals is smaller/faster, hence better response. The other thing is that the reeds are not flexed as much, so they supposedly last longer. I can't see anything to disagree with there, I'm amazed at how much they still look new.
I don't know if it makes a big difference, it does *seem* snappier than a regular cage. I'm about to embark on a big build, and I plan on using the vforce3 valve for the kx85. I trust the design, and it doesn't need to be as long(deep) to get the same flow. Plus, no metal screws is cool.
Carbon fiber sheet is not that expensive for the amount you would need to make a bunch of spares. I'm thinking I will just go that route. Should take maybe 20 mins (for my slow ass) in cad to draft it. My maker space has a laser cutter and CNC router. One of them should work.
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