br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 11, 2023 23:43:33 GMT -5
ok thanks for the infos. it actually dont ride on the boss but its close. today i installed 5g rollers instead of 5.5g, and that made a HUGE difference in cruise RPM. it is now stable at 7700-7900 rpm. but i took note of what happen sicne it was a hot day today and didnt want to go home as asap. so from 0 to 15 km/h, it grab good. id say its strong. rpm doesnt go over 7900 there. from 15 to 40 its slippy as hell and rpm increase to 8500-8700 rpm. i could go slowly on throttle but it will go at 8300 instead. not much better. from 40 to to 55 km/h it have a good feeling. no lack of power no slip felt nothing. and after that the engine doesnt have the power to push me back anymore so i cannot say but i didnt feel any slippage. for rpm, it stays stable at 7800 all the way after 40 km/h. EDIT: took a 3h long trip lurking around town. i looked so suspicious lol. at a stop one guy drinking a beer at the bar outside ran to me yelling HEY HEY HEY. i tought he was angry. nope. he just waned me that he tried to see my front turn signal many time but couldnt ( they're too close to led bulb inside the headlights and full day they're just way too small on the headlight housing ). fine. it seems that belt disentegrating/snapping is a thing of the past now. so it was my pitted front fixed pulley. i just hope it was really that and wont do it again later.... now tho, still the same slipping issue at the same exact rpm range, cold and hot. i can take off full throttle but have to release at around 15 km/h else the engine identify as a F1 engine taking high rpm. then at 35-37 km/h i can pin the throttle with NO issue at all . stable rpm from 7600 to 7900 depending on winds, hill, and so on. i know its slipping, but why ? why only at this rpm range ? after takeoff or after slowing down its always the same. this can be my 1000 rpm spring too weak ? can this be caused by a variator that isnt perfectly flat ? if so ima check mine with a ruler. EDIT 2 : first, i checked my variator ( Naraku sport ) with a ruler, and its not flat. the middle is lower than the outer and inner. by middle, its a bit toward the outside but not right in the middle. its not straight it look like the belt slipped the hell out many time in this range but never at the same exact place. iirc variator should be straight, right ? second, i did install my red ( 2000 rpm from Glixal ) contra spring, kept blue ( 1000 rpm ) clutch springs, and tried several rollers. the best i could get is 7.5g. 6 was way too light ( cruise at 8300 rpm ) and 8 was too heavy ( didnt even hit 7000 rpm ) now it doesnt seems to slip anymore. the rpm stays wighin 7200-7300 takeoff and keep it this way up to like 50 km/h. then climb to 7800 - 7900 rpm and stays there. yup its not perfect but WAYYYYY better. so that tells me its a mix of 2 things : dead variator + wrong contra spring. now the belt doesnt go as high in the variator tho. its missing a good 1/2 of a inch. so i can hit 62 km/h MAX, not 70-72 anymore.
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Post by aeroxbud on May 12, 2023 6:19:15 GMT -5
Let's hope some more tuning with weights will have it sorted.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 12, 2023 21:58:55 GMT -5
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Post by 90GTVert on May 13, 2023 8:38:19 GMT -5
I would try a different belt. I know you said they're expensive, but I'm not sure why they have to be. PartsForScooters has Bando (usually my go-to) and Naraku at reasonable prices. Not sure how shipping is to you. I've just had too many problems that baffled me when using cheaper belts... and then the problems disappeared when I went back to Bando. www.partsforscooters.com/search?keywords=729&page=1The glazing on your belt doesn't worry me as much as the cracking and chipping. All belts are going to glaze to a degree. Some slip is required for a CVT to work. Yours does look severely glazed, but I'm more concerned that it's going to come apart from the look of the rubber. Every CVT on my scoots is vented or has airflow. The small scoots are mostly just holes cut/drilled in the cover. The RC-One has a specially designed cover that provides a lot of flow and keeps quite cool compared to most. The TMAX has a system with 2 filters designed to move a lot of air through it. Cooling is important. The more slip you have, the hotter it gets too. Regarding RPM drop; I used to get that a lot on my TaoTao. Mine wouldn't be right after the scoot warmed up. It took some time, but my CVT cover was vented. I switched from generic contra springs to NCY and it improved. Malossi or Polini may be a good bet. I know, another answer involving spending more. I don't like to do that, but that is what helped me. These days I tend to try to stick with well known top brands. Generally the price isn't that much worse and I seem to be less likely to have headaches later.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 13, 2023 12:40:52 GMT -5
thanks brent. it is vented. as all 139qmb. i even enlarged entrace and exit to be sure ( more like porting ). no changes. one in front, one near the middle, and one at the rear. i cant feel any air flow from any of the holes. it seems logic since its a simple fan inside a case not sucking any air it just move it. the problem with quality belt is... no matter where i look the same shit happens. look at that SCAM shipping cost... its 3 time the item price... come on scammers stop... its a huge and known problem, but since people accept to be scammed so hard, NO ONE do anything against it. qand NO its not what it actually cost to ship such item. its the store/seller that put higher price and blame it on delivery compagny. my fucking god... 109.46 CAD for a damn belt... YO i have 4 Bando for cars for that price... took a whole week to look around for better option, and only scootertuning have acceptable price $ shipping. but always out of stock for this one. when i saw that i went to the local post office with my brand new glixal belt in its box and asked for a price to ship to partsforscooter address. 17.50 CAD ( 12.91 US ). then called UPS, the biggest scammer in the world, game them the weight, dimensions, and destination, 25.76 CAD ( 19.00 US ). they ALL do that, some RARE time its not the retailer thats cam people, its the delivery compagny but this is a rare case. this big scam seems to happen ONLY when its out of the 48 states. aka other country. eys tis cost more to ship internationally, but how on ea this is why i keep going with Glixal belt. no other options. i know thier parts are of proper quality ( ofc its not ncy naraku malossi and so on, but way better than other generic stuff. yes they all come from the same place, but each different quality. last season i asked scootertuning, scooterswapshop, and even partsforscooter and they advised me to not spend money on a good brand belt ( high price ) before i fix the overheating issue because at this point they wont do really better. belt ehat resistence have a limit. actually, i'm looking at the Naraku belt since day one. i used to love Naraku. normally, very high quality stuff. yes on par with polini malossi stage6 and so on. and last month i learned that its made by Bando. the only one i could possibly get is a Gates from rockauto. but i cannot make a bot what will buy it the exact moment its in stock for 5 minute. i dont have those programming skills. i check at 8am its in stock. i check at 10 am its out of stock. i then tried to find a Dongil belt like the one that came on the scooter ( HIGH quality korean belt, mostly used in OEM korean vehicle but some japan car too ). same thing. they scam on shipping AND extremly hard to find. its sad Glixal belt snap because of heat. they seems very strong for usage. none of them shred. all my other belts i had shred / snap in no time. life in canada ( or in quebec ? ) is NOT funny at all when ti comes to scooter. scammers all around and filled with blind sheeps that refuse to do anything to help the issue. so much sheeps, a kid put a 2006 yamaha bws for sale, no paper, missing leg shield, 70cc blown need rebuild for 3800$ CAD, and its gone in less than 2 days. pathetic. a used bike dealer sayd, word by word in quebec french " WHAT THE FUCK c'est quoi cette marde la... les jeune ont vraiment un probleme dans tete esti ca a pas d'allure ca en vaut meme pas 1500. achette pas ca ". in english. it can be translated to " WHAT THE FUCK what is this shit... teens really have a mental ehalth issue FUCK it makes no sense its not even worth 1500. don't but this ". also, paying more is not the biggest problem... well it wasnt. but i had to do a full rebuild and that took all my money away. the brand new glixal belt i have, i didnt even pay for this one.someone with a scootterre bistro 50 ordered the wrong one. i got it free because im the one working on his scooter and i never make him pay a dime. so he gave it to me. i told him to order the 669 but since we talked alot about belt lenght he mixed things up and ordered the 729. anyway. if the cvt overheat destroyed my crank seal, it means it was EXTREMLY hot. i hope damage is limited to the seal.
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Post by 90GTVert on May 13, 2023 14:17:46 GMT -5
Have you asked ScooterTuning.Ca to order it for you? Might be worth a shot. They've always been honest with me when I ask about something and even for me in the US they have better shipping rates than most US companies.
Heat in the CVT is some combination of heat from the CVT and heat from the engine. Liquid cooled engines for example tend to run lower CVT temps because they aren't transferring as much heat into the cases. Better still with the Piaggio design that allows some coolant to pass into the cases. Liquid cooling isn't much of an option here, but oil temps are pretty high on these little engines and oil coolers are available. I was seeing 280-285F oil temp on my 49cc TaoTao with CHT maxing at 300-330F in summer heat.
I think when it's hot enough to melt the fan, something out of the ordinary is up. The oil sealing on these things suck. I've been through quite a few seals on my TaoTao. I don't know that it's heat for sure. It makes me curious if the oil could be contaminating surfaces enough to cause slip. I've had grease get on a pulley from a bad torque driver seal and even a small amount made it rev like crazy. Not sure that makes total sense here though. You said at first that it drops RPM as it heats up, and oil would probably leak more as it thins with heat... plus, this sounds like it's been going on for a bit. I'd expect oil contamination not to cause some linear or predictable amount of slip, but rather great fluctuations in RPM with little consistency or just flat out slipping and revving to the moon all of the time.
The bad thing is, once slipping starts, it's probably only going to get worse and it will heat quickly if anything slips. Don't leave the clutch out either. A clutch can put a lot of heat into the rest of the CVT.
Another thing I've learned with lots of fiddling with CVT stuff is that these things can be tough to find. My CVT setup before I moved to the RC-One was breaking belts every 100-250 miles for years. I just accepted it as life with a good bit of power. Moved to the RC-One that has even more power and I should be able to get at least 1000 miles out of a belt from what I'm seeing (775 on the last one and I didn't need to replace it). I went over that CVT so many times with a fine tooth comb and trying to adjust various things. Now I think it was my modified torque driver. I machined it to work like another pulley that I once had, but I think that was a bad idea. The thing is, unless you're some engineering whiz, you can look at these things with a magnifying glass and there may still be some property or mismatch that you aren't going to catch tripping you up. I'd like to get a new unmodified version of the torque driver on my last setup just to prove that it is the issue. Not try to bore you with my setups, but just an example. I've worked with small CVTs a whole lot and there's just nothing wrong with it through typical inspection methods and I've gone over belt alignment and all of that sort of stuff, but it destroys belts to this day.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 13, 2023 15:51:33 GMT -5
thanks for your answer. yes i asked them to order one for me. they can, but they refuse to in my cvt condition. they said they dont want to sell things that wont last as they should ( thats why they sell alot of 101 octane stuff... yes they're BAD product, but they last what they should for that price ).
the cvt had this issue way before the seal start leaking. i know because i inspect my scooter rigorously ( and also the fact that this happened before the bottom end rebuild, with absolutly no leaks at all ). yes i knew my front fixed pulley was pitted like hell, but alot of people said its not an issue at all. now i know it do and to an extreme level. last week there was absolutly no leak at all. the seal and crankshaft was as dry as a 105 years old mammy. the leaking issue is not old. probably appeared in the last 3-4 ride i took. and the seals have way less than 200 km on them right now.
EDIT: after further inspection, at 7 degree fahrenheit, 5h37 AM, absolutly no sign of oil either on the pulleys or on the belt. its dripping not spitting. ill check even better tomorrow when i disassemble the engine to change the crank seal.
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Post by GrumpyUnk on May 15, 2023 9:01:06 GMT -5
QUPTE:"when i disassemble the engine to change the crank seal."
Really? You have not tried using a sheet metal screw driven into the side of the seal, and then used as a 'handle' to pull the old seal? Then a length of CPVP pipe as a 'driver' to press the new seal in place. You take the case apart? I'd surely try a replace without disassembling the engine. tom
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 15, 2023 11:06:33 GMT -5
QUPTE:"when i disassemble the engine to change the crank seal." Really? You have not tried using a sheet metal screw driven into the side of the seal, and then used as a 'handle' to pull the old seal? Then a length of CPVP pipe as a 'driver' to press the new seal in place. You take the case apart? I'd surely try a replace without disassembling the engine. tom thanks tom. ive used this very old trick years ago.... didnt go well at all. the seal never came out. a retired mechanic also tried after me, no luck at all. had to disassemble the raptor engine to change it. i tought this trick was another one of those fake trick... well, i'll try it again... if it fail, no problem i'm prepared to split it. its sitting on the bench. is there any difference between black and brown seal ? when i received my seals kit yesterday i noticed this kit, unlike the Glixal i had, was missing the 16.4x30x5mm seal, but had two 19.8x30x5. i dont care, i have the crank seals i need and dont need the transmission seal. but while checking all that, found the Naraku seal kit ( which is a QUALITY kit ) one seal is brown. and other quality kit also have a brown seal. i dont know where it goes, but according to one picture its on the crankshaft, variator side. if the brown one is actually of better quality, ill install the cheap one i received yesterday and order the naraku kit. ill have to wait it for about a month anyway, or pay over 30$ of shipping from usa + customs fee and its 3 weeks. ive had very very good luck with Glixal products ( some of them been equal to the quality stuff i treid ), but it look like Grant is right about crank seal, they're cheap stuff. VERY cheap stuff. i can ahve Glixal product cheaper than amazon/aliexpress ( about 40% cheaper ) but unavailable on amazon and no fast delivery on aliexpress. had to order the Goofit. or pay 67$ for a single one from high quality bearing and seal retail store. no thanks. wallet is lightweight enought with that money sucker thing another question, why belt is about to break just because its cracked under ? isnt the cord inside making all its strenght ?
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Post by aeroxbud on May 15, 2023 14:43:55 GMT -5
I've used the screw trick to do loads of seals before. Always worked for me. I usually drill a very small hole in the metal part of the seal first. It lets the screw really grip the seal.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 15, 2023 19:46:26 GMT -5
thats what i tried. but couldnt be done at all. the moment i put the drill bit on the seal, before i put standart pressure to drill the hole, the seal slide right away. like it heated so much that it become smaller. before splitting the case i tried everything, even with picks made for that. no way to get it out. treid to drill it again but the bit just slide away because its not straight. my automatic punch was useless also. so i split the case and remove the crankshaft. and like the meme says, SURPRISE MOTHERFUCKER ! the seal fell off with absolutly no resistence. put it back on the crank, slide like its way too big ( it was a perfect fit when new ). put it in the case, it slide without any help. couldnt even turn the case over and keep the seal in place. the seal is really bad.
i hope the "pit" on the shaft isnt right where the seal goes and dont cause any leak.
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Post by aeroxbud on May 16, 2023 5:42:03 GMT -5
Yeah the Minarelli motors are easy to get a drill to line up with. The Piaggio ones are the same nightmare. So small you can't get a drill bit straight.
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Post by kosmos on May 16, 2023 20:03:20 GMT -5
put the stock cvt setup back in there, the pulleys, especially the back one; the driven one. and only use a variator that is for your exact scooter. and use the stock belt, and stock drive boss. don't shim. clutch pads fine as long as its for your scooter use aftermarkets. but don't mess with the pulleys or the drive boss on the drive side. then you shouldn't have any cvt issues as the builder if its not chinese knows how to engineer these cvt's for good performance and not to break until the shop manual says they need replaced. also looking at the picture of your belt and your cvt with belt installed, the belt looks very tight. it shouldnt sink down into the back pulley, it shouldn't be any tighter than glove tight or maybe a tiny bit of play because when you tighten the variator and the front pulley down, theyll grab the belt on its sides and thats were the belt rides. Im surprised you're not breaking variators with these belts. Are the slide guides in the variator not breaking? are they still in good shape and not cracked or missing?
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 17, 2023 12:11:35 GMT -5
put the stock cvt setup back in there, the pulleys, especially the back one; the driven one. and only use a variator that is for your exact scooter. and use the stock belt, and stock drive boss. don't shim. clutch pads fine as long as its for your scooter use aftermarkets. but don't mess with the pulleys or the drive boss on the drive side. then you shouldn't have any cvt issues as the builder if its not chinese knows how to engineer these cvt's for good performance and not to break until the shop manual says they need replaced. also looking at the picture of your belt and your cvt with belt installed, the belt looks very tight. it shouldnt sink down into the back pulley, it shouldn't be any tighter than glove tight or maybe a tiny bit of play because when you tighten the variator and the front pulley down, theyll grab the belt on its sides and thats were the belt rides. Im surprised you're not breaking variators with these belts. Are the slide guides in the variator not breaking? are they still in good shape and not cracked or missing? thanks. stock variator is completly dead. it is in fact a chinese scooter. and if you knew how retarded people are right now about scooter price, you'd understand why i'm stuck with this nightmare of a scooter. it have to do with my luck i guess, since i know many chinese scooter owners ( mostly 139qmb like mine but short case ) and those damn thing, altrought they're made verycheap, are very damn reliable... "brand" scooter have nothing to laught at, as reliability is concerned ( the rest of the scooters is another story tho ). any parts for my specific scooter doesnt exist ( 2009 maverick viron, generic model HT50QT-36 ). i can find parts for HT50QT-36, but they're all UNIVERSAL GY6 50cc. exactly like those "performance" or "replacement" parts sold universally for those engine. it is indeed tight when its torqued down. its either this tight or ride on the boss. i had it ride on the boss before, but everyone said it shouldnt ride on the boss at all. so i found the proper boss that fix this. no change at all for my issue tho. it did fix the "slipping clutch" feels at takeoff tho. its still a heavy weight to get on moving, but it doesnt feels like a car slipping clutch anymore. the guides are in very good condition. i'm not "breaking" my variator, but killing them. my Naraku variator face is not flat anymore. putting a ruler on it i can see lights and ive been told its dead because it should be FLAT. anyway the sleeve is done. i can wiggle the variator on the boss ( the boss is fine ). the stock variator ( i dont think its stock but its what came on and its not a performance one for sure ) face was also done. it was like the Naraku face, but also pitted to hell. also had some very deep scratch on it. i put it on the drill press and removed the minimum amount of material just to remove those scratch and pits using angle grinder. then sanded it for a nice & flat face. did not try it yet i ahd to test the fixed pulley before ( pitted and rusted, resurfaced it the same way ). the resurfaced fixed pulley changed EVERYTHING. but the problem came back after a week, and worse. sadly it wasnt my issue. if it ride any higher than it is right now on the variator, then it lose all takeoff power because it ride lower in the rear pulley. not correct. i had hard time sleeping the last 2 nights... i keep thinking the crank seal oil leak did cause my slipping and overheating issue... but ive never found any oil in there. always been extra dry. and its been 3 seals as of now and i always had this issue. maybe, just MAYBE the oil leak was my issue on the last ride... but i found no sign of oil anywhere in the whole cvt but laying on the bottom of the case (barely wet, but easy to spot ). i checked everywhere, no oil to be found on any cvt part. not even on the belt. i'm pretty sure it just dripped not splashed out. the seal is replaced, but not sure how it will work out. there is some damage on the shaft near the seal ( possibly right behind ). the crank is NEW. less than 600 km. since i dont see any metal chip anywhere i guess it was like that when i received it. but i dont remember seeing anything like that. in last hope i filed it using nail clipper. DAMN its so soft WTF is that ? no wonder its been damaged from NOTHING. right now i cannot buy another crank. so ill try, and if needed my last hope is to fill the pits with j-b weld and make a smooth-perfect surface. it worked for years on my abused 88 kawasaki bayou 300 crank, so i dont see why it wouldnt no this one. it also work awesome to repair pitted fork tube. yup it shouldnt be done this way, but unless i magically get a free crank on the mail, its my only option. if this damn god leave me alone fo a second and i have some money left as it was before, ill buy a quality crank ( Naraku, Jasil, or SSPG if in the same price range, and IF available somewhere.... ). would allow me to do whatever i can think of ( rev to 10k all day long ? put a 52mm bbk and dont give a damn ? ) i hope they're harder than cheaper one...... i would also like to buy a quality belt if i could... i do have a variator kit on the way ( complete with fixed pulley and fan ). but meanwhile..... should be here on 30th or 4th. dunno i have 2 estimated delivery time. anyway they're close and ill probably get it before that as usual.
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Post by kosmos on May 17, 2023 16:31:20 GMT -5
Ok i got a question. Do you take off the variato (DRIVE) side nut, and take off the front half pulley and leave the variator and drive boss on and then put your belt on like, slip it over the rear (Driven) pulley, and then slip it over the drive boss. Then putting back on the front (Drive) pulley half, annd the washer/nut and tighten it down? Thats how I found out my problem. The belt was way too tight and id have to muscle it to get the belt to go over the drive boss. I don't squeeze my rear pulley when I put on a belt. So, Ive got the measurements from my old bike that actually took a weird 671-17.7-28 belt I believe, (never got to test it it got stolen before I could ever try it); not a 669. I had a guy measure the length of his belt that had the same bike as mine and it was 30inches when all the 669's I could find were under that, usually by a 1/4 inch or more. they always broke the variator slide guides or even the driven pulley (clutch) seals, and then its metal on metal and you've got a broken belt/ messed up variator/ driven pulley. The problem is if the belts too tight, you're putting too much stress on the front and back pulleys at a point where they're not working Check to see when you put the belt on using those steps if it has to be muscled on to slip over the drive boss of the variator side, when its slipped over the rear (driven) clutch pulley or not. If it doesnt fit "like a glove" at the worst, its too short. or maybe the wrong angle or thickness. but i see your sig says 729-17.7-28 already. not much any thinner or less acute angles than that on belts. btw check out this site for different sized stock chinese scoot belts partsforscooters - belts
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