br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 5, 2023 19:25:08 GMT -5
hi. took 3 ride with my scooter today to check if it CAN start the season. it seems it can but i have a question. all the scooter i see on youtube and IRL ( based on sound ) seems to have a VERY stable rpm fromt akeoff to top speed. mine, no amtter what i do, vary the rpm alot. cold, its almost stable. stays in the 7800-7900 rasnge. but when at operating temperature after like 5 minute, everything changes. takeoff goes up to 8500 rpm and after around 40 km/h it drop to 700-7300 rpm. weight are 5.5g right now. if i put ehavier roller then it drop the HOT rpm even mroe so no power, and wih lighter roller, i didnt try because its already high at takeoff/accel, but i guess it would hit 9500 rpm takeoff/accel and drop to maybe 8200 at cruise.
72cc bbk ( with matching head ) so i dont want to go at 10 000rpm like alot of stock 139qmb ride. i know ti can handle it for long stock but not with a bbk. crank is new too ( standard replacement ).
why is my cvt doing that ? is it related to my overheating issue ? if yes, WHY is it overheating.. could it be because i dont have the plastic under the scooter so no airflow to the cvt intake ?
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Post by aeroxbud on May 6, 2023 6:06:08 GMT -5
Sounds like the torque drive. It's where the different angle on the drive engages. The difference in RPM from cold to warm, is probably the CVT heating up and allowing more slip.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 6, 2023 12:13:11 GMT -5
Sounds like the torque drive. It's where the different angle on the drive engages. The difference in RPM from cold to warm, is probably the CVT heating up and allowing more slip. thanks. i did change the torque driver position ( its Glixal torque driver with 2 different position ) and doesnt seems to change anything about this. it act differently, but not related to my issue. ok so its not normal to act like that.... is this higher rpm at takeoff/acceleration a problem for the engine ? it doesnt stay high for long. maybe from 0 to 20 km/h something like that. thena fter it start to drop and stay low ( 7100-7300 ) at cruise. i hope its fine cause i'm still trying to figure overheating issue since 2 seasons. i have 1000 rpm blue springs ( clutch & contra ) on right now. i also have 2000 rpm red springs kit ( came in the racing clutch assy ). should it help if i run the red set ? its 47mm 72cc BBK. can my cvt overheating issue be because i dont have the plastic under the scooter ? ( i have the foot board but we see the frame under the scooter this plastic is missing )
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Post by aeroxbud on May 6, 2023 13:09:13 GMT -5
It sounds like you have too strong clutch springs fitted. The colours mean little as different brands use different colours for different strength springs. That's why it's always good to buy a pack of multiple springs.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 6, 2023 19:46:25 GMT -5
i know the color means nothing thats why i rely on RPM statement ( but also state color for Glixal brand ). 2 stock contra spring isnt helping at all, and i dont have any stock clutch sprign sicne they're different for every damn scooter. and impossible to get what came stock on that thing. anyway i had similar problem with "suspicious condition" springs. thats what happened today on a +/- 30 km ride with a break halfway going to the hardware store and one halfway gettign back home.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 7, 2023 19:57:30 GMT -5
ok so after further inspection, even the plastic fan started to melt. its melted where it touch the drive face and is bent inbetween the 3 pin that hond it agaisnt the drive face. re-checked aligment, it look perfectly aligned.
i'm wondering if its not the pitted fixed puley ( aka drive face ? aka second half ? whatever you call it ). i'm resurfacing it right now using drill press and sandpaper and a block. its getting good, butnot perfect. gotta be better while o wait the Glixal full variator kit that include that damn drive face.
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Post by GrumpyUnk on May 9, 2023 9:42:35 GMT -5
How much time/miles on that belt? Who made it? What size?
I bought a Taotao that had been 'upgraded' and the 'unnecessary' fan shroud removed and tossed.
It got hot real quickly, ate its rings, and would no longer run/start. I paid $50 I think.
Like brand new. Replaced piston & cylinder and got new shrouds. Once put back together, that thing just worked.
Were I trying to make a combination of CVT/belt/clutch work and work properly, I would be tempted to get a set from a Taotao dealer and install it. The engine and final drive gearbox on all are likely 100% the same, so getting a factory specified buncha parts that SHOULD work fine out of the box is tempting. Beyond that, getting good components is required to get decent performance. Once you have things working to the point it does not eat belts, does not overheat, and pulls nicely, you can tune the weights, torque spring, clutch springs as desired. If that belt was new-ish, with few miles total, either the belt is crap out the door, or the CVT is not working properly. Variator will force upshift of gear ration, weights affect how quickly. Torque spring will resist upshift. Stronger will keep the rpms up before allowing higher ratio. Clutch springs will engage earlier in rpm range, or later, depending on strength. Add all three and you get particular rpm/speed/acceleration.... Quite the jalopy mess it seems. But there are guidelines showing who does what, and a bunch on site. If I got this wrong, please correct as desired.... tom
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 9, 2023 16:40:59 GMT -5
How much time/miles on that belt? Who made it? What size? I bought a Taotao that had been 'upgraded' and the 'unnecessary' fan shroud removed and tossed. It got hot real quickly, ate its rings, and would no longer run/start. I paid $50 I think. Like brand new. Replaced piston & cylinder and got new shrouds. Once put back together, that thing just worked. Were I trying to make a combination of CVT/belt/clutch work and work properly, I would be tempted to get a set from a Taotao dealer and install it. The engine and final drive gearbox on all are likely 100% the same, so getting a factory specified buncha parts that SHOULD work fine out of the box is tempting. Beyond that, getting good components is required to get decent performance. Once you have things working to the point it does not eat belts, does not overheat, and pulls nicely, you can tune the weights, torque spring, clutch springs as desired. If that belt was new-ish, with few miles total, either the belt is crap out the door, or the CVT is not working properly. Variator will force upshift of gear ration, weights affect how quickly. Torque spring will resist upshift. Stronger will keep the rpms up before allowing higher ratio. Clutch springs will engage earlier in rpm range, or later, depending on strength. Add all three and you get particular rpm/speed/acceleration.... Quite the jalopy mess it seems. But there are guidelines showing who does what, and a bunch on site. If I got this wrong, please correct as desired.... tom less than 125 miles for sure. i exagerate because i dont know exactly but thats more than what it did. its a Glixal belt. i know i know what you gonna say but a premium belt must be available to get one at a non extrem scam price ( 80 for the belt + 60 for the shipping LOL NO THANKS ). and there is no way ill put a pricey belt on that thing that keep snapping belt because or excessive heat. its the first try i give to Glixal belt and its the best i ever had to date ( it came with a Dongil korean belt, very high quality, but was over-worn sicne it was came on it factory and previous owner NEVER changed it. Glixal was my BEST belt to date, even the MOGO 70$ belt didnt even last half of that. i saw a 1PZ Premium belt actually available that is not a scam, but comment say it turn over and snap. it cannopt turn over so this review is pointless. not sure its any better than the Glixal one. there is no way ill pay a higher price belt sicne ive been told many time it wont fix my issue, so they will snap voer and over again. ofcourse would be better to get a high quality belt but yeah its not the case. anyway ive never ehad anyone snapping cheap belt that fast. ive seen terrible obelt shred in no time, but snap in less than125 miles ? nope. i do run the engine shroud. its in good condition but missing the rubber now. always had the issue even when i had that rubber. i tried to get that rubber from any source, total scam with shipping. tried to get a shroud kit, NONE comes with the shroud. contacted scootertuning, partsforscooter, ncystore, and 3 parts store that sells alot of random gy6 parts, NNOE could find this rubber alone not a kit that comes with. engine doesnt overheat ( max 276 F recorded on hot day on a long drive, and manuals says 300 F max ). unless you say otherwise and 276 is way too hot ? EDIT : i did sand down the front fixed pulley and its almost as shiny as a new one. it seems a bit better. hard to say... this belt already show some MINOR glazing from the way home when the other belt broke. but i can tell that it take it more time before it start to drop WOT cruise rpm to 7100-7300. maybe 10 minute more. but it was a bit colder outside so who know. it held rpm more stable. still not as it should but a bit better. i dont see how a pitted fixed pulley could overheat a belt so much ? shred it, yes. seen that many times. but overheat and snap anyway its still overheating. a bit less but still.
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Post by aeroxbud on May 10, 2023 3:13:49 GMT -5
We have had a couple of people on here who have had a belt flip over. Seen pictures of it on other forums too. So it does happen. Usually it's something wrong in the CVT though. If you are getting glazing on the belt it must be slipping. That would cause it to heat up.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 10, 2023 11:06:16 GMT -5
We have had a couple of people on here who have had a belt flip over. Seen pictures of it on other forums too. So it does happen. Usually it's something wrong in the CVT though. If you are getting glazing on the belt it must be slipping. That would cause it to heat up. thanks. thats what i tought, it slip. but WHY ? it seems to be correctly tuned ( clearly not perfect tho.. just correct so it work ok ). everything is new there but the front fixed pulley. always had this issue since i bought it. slipping explains why the rpm climb sky high ( when hot ) then sattle down after like 15 km/h or so. slipping also explains why every scooter i tried have a snappy takeoff but mine act like a car slipping clutch.é nothing "grab" it just go very slowly. and i know its not the clutch because i tried the vino ( extremly snappy ) clutch on mine, and mine on the vino. no change anywhere. vino with my clutch is really snappy and mine with vino clutch is like a car slipping clutch but clutch not slipping. sadly only the clutch is the same the rest isnt so couldnt try swapping the whole assembly over. once i tried with 8g roller, which is extremly heavy. didnt change a thing about slippage but it was terrible to drive. barely accelerate and barely hit 5k rpm. no power = no speed, so it wasnt even hitting 45 km/h lol. tried changing torque driver position, no change. bench tested torque driver operation, its nice and smooth. then tested its operation on kick stand, still butter smooth operation. no grease leak anywhere. yesterday i was about to put back the stock unckown condition contra spring, but i didnt. i ahd the same issue with it on the old clutch. add to that i had nothign to give me a kick to do it sicne it would mean the whole planet can run better than stock spring ( even on stock scooter ) but me. if for whatever reason it could be a nosense like that, then ill swap in the old stock spring and give it a try. i dont feel like doing it i'm over done wasting my time trying to figure the problem without any changes. i have a brand new variator full kit ( comes with the fixed pulley and the fan, since mine melted ) on the way but its gonna take 3 weeks so.... belt snapping happen ONLY while cruising. ive snapped 3 going normally, and 2 wide open throttle for a good distance ( 10 minute ? ). NEVER when taking off. the last one snapped going uphill but thats a first. generally snap on nice flats.
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Post by aeroxbud on May 10, 2023 13:50:20 GMT -5
Slipping is usually a weak contra spring of a variator spaced too far out. Perhaps the boss is too long? It can be frustrating trying to pin down these problems.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 11, 2023 9:46:38 GMT -5
Slipping is usually a weak contra spring of a variator spaced too far out. Perhaps the boss is too long? It can be frustrating trying to pin down these problems. thanks. so a 1000 rpm spring ( we can feel its wayyy stronger than stock ) can still be too weak ? how ? i tought stiffer spring had no effect other than allow to run heavier roller. maybe i can put my 2000 rpm back on ? ( it came in the racing clutch assy, but it was still stock 50cc back then ). the variator cannot be spaced too far out. there is absolutly NO spacer at all. there was non when i bought it and ive been told some model didnt have any from factory. front and rear pulley are very well aligned. unless it must be checked at cruise speed on the center stand ? you are half right for the boss in my case. i have 2 different lenght boss. one ( stock ) is way too short. the belt doesnt even ride on the boss. and the naraku boss is way better. can block the variator and still move the belt with some force. but seems to ride on the boss. hard to see there. if its not riding on the boss then its a mm off no more. when slippage happens, i guess it should usually happen at take off right ? or can also happens at cruise ? the belt ride high on the variator. the highest i have ever got on that thing
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Post by aeroxbud on May 11, 2023 10:51:42 GMT -5
The contra spring stops the two halves coming together. A stiffer spring will grip better, but generate more heat. You have to use heavier roller weights to overcome this extra force. Not the other way around. Perhaps try the standard boss, but shim it out somewhere in between the length of the two of them. If there is no room for adjustment with shims perhaps it is too long? Are both variator the same widths? Where the slip happens can depend on many factors. How the variator is positioned. Angle of belt or variator. Problem with variator shifting, or weight of rollers.
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Post by snaker on May 11, 2023 10:59:54 GMT -5
Slipping is usually a weak contra spring of a variator spaced too far out. Perhaps the boss is too long? It can be frustrating trying to pin down these problems. thanks. so a 1000 rpm spring ( we can feel its wayyy stronger than stock ) can still be too weak ? how ? i tought stiffer spring had no effect other than allow to run heavier roller. maybe i can put my 2000 rpm back on ? ( it came in the racing clutch assy, but it was still stock 50cc back then ). the variator cannot be spaced too far out. there is absolutly NO spacer at all. there was non when i bought it and ive been told some model didnt have any from factory. front and rear pulley are very well aligned. unless it must be checked at cruise speed on the center stand ? you are half right for the boss in my case. i have 2 different lenght boss. one ( stock ) is way too short. the belt doesnt even ride on the boss. and the naraku boss is way better. can block the variator and still move the belt with some force. but seems to ride on the boss. hard to see there. if its not riding on the boss then its a mm off no more. when slippage happens, i guess it should usually happen at take off right ? or can also happens at cruise ? the belt ride high on the variator. the highest i have ever got on that thing I lightly scanned this post and didn't follow much with it going in many directions. One point you made though, if I understand, is that your trying to make the belt contact the "boss" Once the drive pulley is assembled, the belt should never touch the boss, it should ride up in the sheaves, even at idle. That is why you have to be careful to move the belt away from center when installing so it doesn't block the sheave and keep the sheave from tightening down properly. These GY6 style CVT's are different than the typical snowmobile CVT's These have an actual clutch piggybacked on the driven. The belt never disengages from the pulleys, it spins whenever the engine spins. Snowmobile CVT's don't have a clutch, the drive pulley performs a clutch function. It does that by incorporating a spring into the drive pulley (contra spring #2 if you like). That spring pushes the drive pulley sheaves apart at low rpm's and the space created is wider than the belt. Because of that, the belt does walk down and ride on the "boss". That cause's the belt to stop spinning and just sit there, even the the engine is running. So, to summarize, a sled belt rides on the boss at low rpm, a GY6 style does not ride on the boss at low rpm.
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br4inl3ss
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 489
Location: Québec
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Post by br4inl3ss on May 11, 2023 16:09:58 GMT -5
ok thanks for the infos. it actually dont ride on the boss but its close.
today i installed 5g rollers instead of 5.5g, and that made a HUGE difference in cruise RPM. it is now stable at 7700-7900 rpm. but i took note of what happen sicne it was a hot day today and didnt want to go home as asap. so from 0 to 15 km/h, it grab good. id say its strong. rpm doesnt go over 7900 there. from 15 to 40 its slippy as hell and rpm increase to 8500-8700 rpm. i could go slowly on throttle but it will go at 8300 instead. not much better. from 40 to to 55 km/h it have a good feeling. no lack of power no slip felt nothing. and after that the engine doesnt have the power to push me back anymore so i cannot say but i didnt feel any slippage. for rpm, it stays stable at 7800 all the way after 40 km/h.
EDIT: took a 3h long trip lurking around town. i looked so suspicious lol. at a stop one guy drinking a beer at the bar outside ran to me yelling HEY HEY HEY. i tought he was angry. nope. he just waned me that he tried to see my front turn signal many time but couldnt ( they're too close to led bulb inside the headlights and full day they're just way too small on the headlight housing ). fine.
it seems that belt disentegrating/snapping is a thing of the past now. so it was my pitted front fixed pulley. i just hope it was really that and wont do it again later.... now tho, still the same slipping issue at the same exact rpm range, cold and hot. i can take off full throttle but have to release at around 15 km/h else the engine identify as a F1 engine taking high rpm. then at 35-37 km/h i can pin the throttle with NO issue at all . stable rpm from 7600 to 7900 depending on winds, hill, and so on.
i know its slipping, but why ? why only at this rpm range ? after takeoff or after slowing down its always the same. this can be my 1000 rpm spring too weak ? can this be caused by a variator that isnt perfectly flat ? if so ima check mine with a ruler.
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