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Post by magoconnor on Mar 20, 2018 9:55:28 GMT -5
Hello.
Can anybody share with me there break-in method, concerning a 80cc cylinder?
How long it should warm up (idle).
Cool downs.
Throttle positions.
That sort of thing.
I'm sure there is a thousond different ways (and opinions).
But it could be cool just to gather a few.
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Post by dexameth on Mar 20, 2018 10:17:06 GMT -5
This has been a controversy for a while. I like the warm up, cool down method myself; others will say you'll get better compression with "ride it like you stole it from the showroom" idea.
I was explained that you have maybe 5PSI of pressure with the sprung ring pressing against the cylinder wall. When you go hard on the motor when it's new, you are forcing gasses between the ring and the piston, allowing more force and more honing between the rings and the cylinder. This must be done within the first 20 miles, as after that most of the honing has been done.
I like to start, idle for a few minutes, then shut off and cool. Do this a couple times, then go for a ride at no more than 50% throttle, while fluctuating the throttle, and only ride for 10 minutes. Shut off, cool, then repeat. After a day of riding around the neighborhoods like this, should be good to go for a good ride the next day and do a few WOT runs, but not holding it for a long time. On the third day, RIP IT.
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Mar 20, 2018 11:02:36 GMT -5
If there is any similarity between auto and bike engines, I can relate the instructions that came with a set of rings, specified by the ring manufacturer.
Get the engine warmed up to operating temperature. Accelerate to ~30mph, top gear, depress the gas pedal to the floor and accelerate to 50mph, while not pushing enough to downshift if equipped with an automatic transmission. Take your foot off the gas pedal completely and coast down to 30mph. Drive for a minute or so, and then repeat the 'floor it' technique.
Translated, keep the revs down, BUT load the engine so that the combustion pressure reaches a good peak, forcing the rings out against the cylinder walls, then back off, causing vacuum in the intake, and potentially sucking some oil up past the oil control rings to lube the new rings.
I don't remember cycling the temperature by the idle/shutdown/cool/repeat process.
When I bought a new car, I did the acceleration thing, more or less just to insure the engine/rings had been 'loaded' at least a few times. I then drove off on a 2k trip, where I varied the speed from the mid-50's to 70, cruise for a while at that speed, and then would back off the throttle down to the 50's or even 40's. Still have it, and the engine has about 250k miles without ever removing the heads, etc. It will burn a quart of oil in maybe 1000 miles or more.
To summarize: do not ride for long periods at full throttle. Vary the speed. Back off the gas completely now and again. Do accelerate from mid speed to top end without revving wildly the first time you take it out for a run, and then coast back down to slow speed. Repeat about 10 times.
I don't know about China piston rings, but USA replacement(and likely factory) chrome rings are or were made with a very small ridge of plain old cast iron, very narrow, that would seat to the cylinder wall in very short time, while allowing the much harder and longer wearing chrome segment of the ring to take its time breaking in. This allowed good operation out-of-the-box, and good long life chrome operation later on. New designs(not necessarily in China rings) do even better in all respects. I expect the low budget rings don't have such features, so the 'old ways' seem like the best approach. The above instructions from the ring maker were for a Chevy 'stove-bolt' six, and it seemed to work as the car rusted away over a 5 year timeframe, and went to rust heaven, and the engine was transplanted into a 20-year newer Chevy van and ran for 10-15 years longer after the transplant.
To emphasize, don't run at top speed for any length of time, vary the speed, accelerate and coast, and enjoy. Most times people will want to upgrade or trade up before the rings get anywhere close to worn out.
tom
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Post by 90GTVert on Mar 20, 2018 11:46:52 GMT -5
#1 thing to know about engine break-in : You will not get a 100% vote one way or another in any large (or maybe small) sample size of opinions. www.49ccscoot.com/faq/break-in.html |
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Post by jeff84 on Mar 20, 2018 16:26:59 GMT -5
no matter what method you go with, it seams varying the rpm and load are constants. I say as long as you do that you are good/ just don't hold a constant rpm for long periods of time. pick a long stretch of city street with a stop sign at every intersection. smash it from on sign to the next. if you manage to hit max rpm let completely off the throttle coast for a few seconds then give it half throttle to maintain speed for a sec then smash on the throttle again just in time to need to slam on the brakes for the stop sign
works for me
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Post by V90Performance on Mar 20, 2018 20:43:00 GMT -5
i broke in my bbk by giving it full throttle pulls and a few seconds later, close the throttle. Then i started holding the throttle open for longer periods of time as the miles started to rack up until it was fully broken in.
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Post by Lucass2T on Mar 21, 2018 1:43:37 GMT -5
Biggest can of worms you can possibly open. It's like talking politcs, everyone has their own opinion. Although i think it's more important to break in a 4poop than a 2t.
I don't do break ins on a cylinder btw, just gentle riding untill operating temp. After that just my ordinary riding style.
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Mar 21, 2018 11:42:18 GMT -5
Okaaay ... Now, lets get going on lubricants. Anyone hate synthetic? Despise mineral? I'm sure we can all agree to disagree. BITOG - bob is the oil guy - makes a living on this topic.{I exaggerate, but sure has a good long discussion on many flavors of the topic}
Someone I knew bought a Geo Metro years ago, with the 3-cylinder engine. They drove over to show it off, and I looked under the hood. Not much there... Nicely done, and it was HOT under the hood. It had very few miles on it, and it seemed to shut down to zero rpms in an instant when you turned the key to OFF. I think it needed a longer break-in time as it seemed to be pretty 'tight'. I understand those little midgets are desirable to have now as they got in the 50mpg neighborhood. Just noting that older Korea built engines did seem to need a breakin, noticably, while USA built of a bit older did not seem to be so 'stiff'. FWIW.
tom
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Post by Lucass2T on Mar 22, 2018 2:38:46 GMT -5
Okaaay ... Now, lets get going on lubricants. Anyone hate synthetic? Despise mineral? I'm sure we can all agree to disagree. BITOG - bob is the oil guy - makes a living on this topic.{I exaggerate, but sure has a good long discussion on many flavors of the topic} Someone I knew bought a Geo Metro years ago, with the 3-cylinder engine. They drove over to show it off, and I looked under the hood. Not much there... Nicely done, and it was HOT under the hood. It had very few miles on it, and it seemed to shut down to zero rpms in an instant when you turned the key to OFF. I think it needed a longer break-in time as it seemed to be pretty 'tight'. I understand those little midgets are desirable to have now as they got in the 50mpg neighborhood. Just noting that older Korea built engines did seem to need a breakin, noticably, while USA built of a bit older did not seem to be so 'stiff'. FWIW. tom Same story...lubricants, tires, Sparks plugs...answers and opinions are all over the place. I did alot on research on 4t oils. The more you go read into it...to more unclear it gets. zinc levels zddp's, dopes, JASO, ISO, disintegrating seals and gaskets from full synth oils, hydrocrack sold as full synth.
Eventually i was like....just pick something dude...it just doesnt matter.
I eventually went with Motul 8100 Xcess. Done!
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Post by zummerp on Apr 6, 2018 17:50:08 GMT -5
So on the break-in oil question, does anyone use an oil additive containing zinc to help during the first couple hundred miles? I just added about 100ml of STP Oil Additive to my ATM50-A1 but not sure if it really adds any benefit (hopefully it doesn't hurt).
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Post by 90GTVert on Apr 7, 2018 6:43:42 GMT -5
I use Rotella T all of the time, but some use it just for break in. There are specific break in oils out there.
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Post by zummerp on Apr 7, 2018 8:35:20 GMT -5
I use Rotella T all of the time, but some use it just for break in. There are specific break in oils out there. so I have a lot of faith in your judgement - do you think adding STP Oil Treatment was good/bad/indifferent? I'm second guessing my decision and considering draining it! |
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Apr 7, 2018 9:41:32 GMT -5
I don't think it will hurt anything, and the added ZDDP might get embedded into the cam followers & lobes. If the Zn got 'hooked' with the lobes/followers, it would help with the wear of the rubbing components. The rub puts the lube into 'shear', where the HC chains are chopped by the two pieces rubbing against one another. In the normal or bearing use, the oil is not subject as much to being 'sliced'. The cam/lifter or cam/follower interface was one which really got noticed when OHV engines were first being introduced. Back when a kid, I read several 'Proceedings of the SAE', (yeah, light topic, I know) and read how GM(caddy & Olds), and Packard were handling the wear they were finding between the lobes and the lifters. As an ignorant kid, I could see how the lifter bottoms got hollowed out, and the edges of the cam lobes got worn and pitted. Add some 'magic elixir' to the lube oil, and Shazaaam! the lobes & lifters magically began to show little wear over the test period.
ZDDP is one such additive, and should prolong the lift of flat tappet lifters & followers. Roller equipped followers do not need any help, and they have taken over the current market, so "they" decided to prolong catalytic converter life by removing the Zn.
The STP won't hurt, may cause the lube to 'stick' to the parts longer after shutdown, so there would be some (more?) lube on the bearings and wear points than without, but I can't say the lifetime effect is significant.
The older version of STP had 'viscosity index improvers'(VI), which were coiled up molecules that sprung apart and expanded the coils when heated. The 'long chains' that were added would raise the viscosity of the base oil at higher temperatures, more or less making it act as if it was a thicker oil. They provide the feature of low cranking effort when cold, and higher viscosity when hot. Until the chains get broken, at which time high temp viscosity falls into the ditch. Shearing cam/lobe interfaces act as VI choppers, lowering the effective viscosity after some miles. Your 10W30 at zero miles past oil change may become 10W10 after 4-5k miles, perhaps earlier depending on design and the VI used. STP used to be a big-time VI that was used in high mileage engines that had knocking, rapping and thudding noises. The improved viscosity would tend to lessen the metal-to-metal contact/impact, quieting the engine. It should be fine in these engines as the only thing not directly splash lubricated is the cam & followers, which have a pumped feed that lubes the follower bearing surface, and a splash/drip as the oil flings off the followers cycling at 4,000 cycles per minute. That's why the inside of the valve cover is so clean. There's a hurricane of oil being flung around washing the inside surface all the time the engine is running.
Leave it in until your next change. It doesn't hurt, and you may get some ZDDP deposited. You may be better off in the future getting CJ designated oil. Shell Rotella, Mobil Delvac, Chevron Delo, and Walmart Super Tech are all available in the recommended 15W40 viscosity. The CJ designation indicates compression ignition(diesel) which is more severe service than Sx (spark ignition) due to the contaminants that leak past the rings in the higher compression diesel. Any oil that has the 15W40, and meets the Cx designation should be good, or at least a bit better than the Sx designated oil. If you believe all this as absolute, I do have interest in a bridge I am trying to get sell. I am not an engineer though I did study for a semester, so take it all with a grain of salt. This is my understanding of things whic may relate to reality, or may have been modified by years of Budweiser.
tom
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Post by 90GTVert on Apr 7, 2018 10:41:06 GMT -5
I agree with GU. I'm not an oil expert, but I think it will be fine. Don't really expect that you'll notice any difference either way. Maybe it will do some good.
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derek420
Scoot Member
Ready to Ride!
Posts: 33
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Post by derek420 on May 1, 2018 21:52:11 GMT -5
This is my method sorta I give it many heat cycles (on and off) giving no more than 1/3 throttle I than ride it same way with throttle for the first lets say 100 miles than gradually give it Full throttle for short bursts and continue this for the like first 300 miles (I know takes forever) but this is the way I learned in my studies and works great everyone with a kit wants to just blast it and show off to friends etc but the break in is crucial never ride it like you stole it until afterbreak in or you could shorten engine life majorly id say 50 % failure rate. Watch head temps on 2t for sure as heat is yhe killer here cast iron can handle more than Aluminum which is known to expand. I also retard my timing a little and jet rich you can skip that part for 4t though.
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