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Post by repherence2 on Oct 31, 2019 2:56:12 GMT -5
what about using a Tupperware type container for the air box?
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Post by Lucass2T on Oct 31, 2019 7:20:00 GMT -5
Maybe do a mockup from cardboard and then make one out of aluminum sheets? Possibly with some screens inside that work as an reflection muffler for intake noise? You could buy some generic filter foam and make a minarelli style intake filter element.
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Post by oldgeek on Nov 3, 2019 11:23:58 GMT -5
I ended up going a different direction, literally with the carb and airbox. One of the reasons I wanted to get rid of the stock air box is that there is no room to mount a "better" shock. I have always wanted to upgrade the stock shock but nothing would fit in its allocated space when using the stock airbox. The stock shock is actually pretty good, but I would like something better. As you can see there is not any more room even if I had made an airbox to fit the flange pictured.   I decided to try something I have been thinking about for a long time. I unbolted the upper intake flange from the lower intake and turned it 90 degrees. The bolt holes no longer lined up so I notched each side of the upper intake to allow the bolts to fit. You can see what I did best in the 2nd picture. The match between the upper and lower intake is no longer perfect, but I dont think it matters because I have a stuffer in the reed block with a 21mm hole in it.    With the carb now pointing straight into the intake path I figured I was home free, but nothing is ever easy. The only thing I have on hand that I could make fit reasonably well is the orange mower filter. So I rigged a mount up for it. I forgot how loud that orange air filter is. I think the intake is louder than the exhaust! I could not resist, I took it for a short test ride around the shop at 11:00 PM. Between the colder air, the air filter and whatever jetting changes and variator weight changes I made (can't really remember) since the last time I rode it, this thing screams. It will now rev to around 10500-10800 and it seems to be making power but the dam gearing is killing me. After I got home last night, I decided to look back in this thread to find the durations of the cylinder and the specs John used for the pipe. I think the cylinder ended up at 194/131 and John redesigned the pipe for 190/130 max RPM 10200. So it is no wonder this build wants to rev. Well, there is no doubt about it now. One way or another, I am going to find some stock gears to put back in this thing. |
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Post by oldgeek on Nov 4, 2019 22:33:16 GMT -5
Made a few tuning runs tonight, I got the carb sorted out, temps are high but in check. Top speed is down and I discovered I am not getting full travel from the variator. I ended up changing the CVT a bit. I was using a Dr pulley variator, sliders, a Polini ramp plate and a 38mm boss. I changed to a SEF ramp plate, which requires me to switch to rollers due to the smaller diameter of the SEF ramp plate digging into the top of sliders. I used 7 gram rollers and also a shorter 37mm boss. Performance on the last tuning run was best yet, it pulls pretty hard and I was able to get to 51mph on the short test road. However RPM's are down a bit to around 9600-9700. I could not do a max speed run because the road crews have started paving the bypass right at Scootopia, at least I will have fresh pavement for my long test loop when they are done.  I am still not getting near full travel on the variator, but maybe I will when I go for a max speed run. I know the pipe barely comes on at 9700, it really seems to like at least 10500-10600. If I go with lighter weights to get the revs up I lose variator travel and top speed. Heavier weights gives me better variator travel but lower RPM's and it wont get on the pipe. How do you fix that? |
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Post by repherence2 on Nov 4, 2019 22:57:33 GMT -5
try a shorter boss with the SEF ramp. I know you have the 37 in there now, but if you have something shorter than 37 for the SEF ramp.
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Post by oldgeek on Nov 4, 2019 23:06:51 GMT -5
try a shorter boss with the SEF ramp. I know you have the 37 in there now, but if you have something shorter than 37 for the SEF ramp. Will do, I have several different bosses all different lengths. I have been trying to keep the belt somewhat free when it is at rest, I need all the low gear I can get with these stupid tall gears I have in the gearbox. What variator do the Hawaiian guys use with the SEF plate on their AF16's? I got no less than 5 different brands of variators, all with different ramp profiles in them. |
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Post by repherence2 on Nov 5, 2019 1:18:39 GMT -5
try a shorter boss with the SEF ramp. I know you have the 37 in there now, but if you have something shorter than 37 for the SEF ramp. Will do, I have several different bosses all different lengths. I have been trying to keep the belt somewhat free when it is at rest, I need all the low gear I can get with these stupid tall gears I have in the gearbox. What variator do the Hawaiian guys use with the SEF plate on their AF16's? I got no less than 5 different brands of variators, all with different ramp profiles in them.
the typical setup on Oahu is SEF ramp with the KELI high speed variator. I have read of a SEF 2 ramp plate but I have not gone to the shops to look for it yet.
as far as take off, what RPM do you have your clutch set to? Maybe stalling the clutch to a higher RPM might overcome the low gear issue.
they also run stock clutches or KELI medium or heavy and blue Polini clutch springs. |
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Post by oldgeek on Nov 5, 2019 20:13:26 GMT -5
I was able to get a max speed of 60 mph on my setup before changing anything, I think it had more, but I ran out of room on my test loop and if I go any farther its a couple miles to get back. I still am not getting full travel on the variator. I swapped to a shorter boss and surprisingly nothing really changed except it felt like it was pulling a bit harder. I have a theory that the gears are so tall the variator cannot push past the gearbox gearing. If I can swap in the stock lower gears, I think the variator will get its full travel again and reach its highest gear. I think top speed should be the same whether the gearing happens in the gearbox or the CVT. RPM's are still low about 9600, I hope to get them back up where the pipe is happy cause it feels and sounds like a nitrous shot when the pipe is around 10600  |
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Post by repherence2 on Nov 5, 2019 20:44:33 GMT -5
What size carb are you running?
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Post by oldgeek on Nov 5, 2019 22:12:26 GMT -5
Current setup from database
DTS: November 5, 2019 10:05 PM
Cylinder Type: Tadia 50mm
Crank: Phongeer
Stroke: 52.6
Ex duration: 194
Xfer duration: 131
Pipe: Piece Peace pipe 190/130/10400
Intake: Stage 6 top turned 90°
Reed setup: S6 Viton, CF
Air in: Orange Mower Filter
Carb Type: Dellorto PHBG 21
Slide: 30
Main Jet: 100
Pilot Jet: 40
Needle: 12
Clip Position: 4
Needle Jet: 264
Air Screw: 2.5
Variator: Dr Pulley
Ramp plate: SEF
Boss: 35.9 mm
Shim: 0 mm
Weight Type: Rollers
Total Weight: 40.5 g
Weight A: 6.5
Weight B: 7
Rear Pulley: TFC straight groove
Contra Spring: Stock
Clutch: Artek
Clutch Bell: Malossi
Belt Specs:
Malossi 6111153 738x18x28°
Belt Wear: 0.3 mm
Gearing: 6.08
Primary: 2
Secondary: 3.08
Top Speed: 60 mph
RPM@WOT: 9700
plug: BR9HIX
CHT cruise: 295 °F
Launch: Fair
Mid Pull: Very Good
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Post by 190mech on Nov 6, 2019 0:56:06 GMT -5
I was able to get a max speed of 60 mph on my setup before changing anything, I think it had more, but I ran out of room on my test loop and if I go any farther its a couple miles to get back. I still am not getting full travel on the variator. I swapped to a shorter boss and surprisingly nothing really changed except it felt like it was pulling a bit harder. I have a theory that the gears are so tall the variator cannot push past the gearbox gearing. If I can swap in the stock lower gears, I think the variator will get its full travel again and reach its highest gear. I think top speed should be the same whether the gearing happens in the gearbox or the CVT. RPM's are still low about 9600, I hope to get them back up where the pipe is happy cause it feels and sounds like a nitrous shot when the pipe is around 10600 I agree with your tall gearing theory!The CVT just cant spin up enough to get the sheaves to their full travel no matter what the roller/spring/boss combo used..It needs RPM's to get there and the ratio just won't let it... |
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Post by repherence2 on Nov 6, 2019 1:14:31 GMT -5
"Gearing: 6.08" for real kind Oldgeek? that's not TOO tall for that set up? everything I seen on hondaspree was 7.5 and 7.0 at the lowest for full strokers. all the stoker guys there run 26-30+mm carbs for strokers. stroker pipes are fat in general. the canister and the rest of the pipe are fat in comparison to the typical 70cc pipes. Gdash pipe that I seen listed on CL for 100-125 stroker  Scooter Alley full stroker Scorpion listed on CL.  PG Phongeer stroker pipe   im not saying your Peace Pipe is wrong. I just never seen it. is it Fat like the rest of the DIO stroker pipes? I think the 21 Dell is holding you back too. I am full on biased to fat 28mm PWKs now that I understand how to tune the OKOs. WOT topend, no comparison to the CP 24 polini. CP 24/airbox is better for the city, short bursts and great low/mid range. the wide open OKO 28 is a beauty at WOT. pretty shitty at part throttle but I have found that it makes a big difference at WOT and max speed. I tried to stick with the CP 24/airbox on my 94cc minarelli, but there was no doubt that the 28 OKO handled WOT much better, the bike was faster because it had more power on the top end. |
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Post by oldgeek on Nov 6, 2019 7:09:43 GMT -5
.........."Gearing: 6.08" for real kind Oldgeek? that's not TOO tall for that set up? everything I seen on hondaspree was 7.5 and 7.0 at the lowest for full strokers. Yeah, my gearing is crazy, but it is all I have ATM. The gears for this Kymco are hard to find, and I have destroyed 2 sets of stock gears by forgetting the gear oil. ........im not saying your Peace Pipe is wrong. I just never seen it. is it Fat like the rest of the DIO stroker pipes? Yes, it is pretty phat! I actually have one of the pipes you pictured, I just have not tried it yet. Really no need to, the Peace Pipe hits like a hornet at the right RPM!  Here is the Piece Peace Pipe. It was born a Yasuni R for use on a Piaggio, I cut and rewelded it to fit the Kymco. 190Mech calculated and fabbed a midsection for it, to make it suited for 100cc motor. He sent the midsection to me, I cut the pipe apart and welded the midsection he designed in place.   .........I think the 21 Dell is holding you back too. I am full on biased to fat 28mm PWKs now that I understand how to tune the OKOs. WOT topend, no comparison to the CP 24 polini. CP 24/airbox is better for the city, short bursts and great low/mid range. the wide open OKO 28 is a beauty at WOT. pretty shitty at part throttle but I have found that it makes a big difference at WOT and max speed. I tried to stick with the CP 24/airbox on my 94cc minarelli, but there was no doubt that the 28 OKO handled WOT much better, the bike was faster because it had more power on the top end. The 21mm Dell should be adequate for this 103cc motor. 90GTvert has been very successful using a 21mm with his 100ish Minarelli's. I dont doubt a larger carb would help the top end, but I need a well tuned full range throttle around here, and the PHBG gives it to me. For my future builds that are bigger than 103cc I plan to move up to the 24mm CP or possibly even a 28mm OKO. I have been looking for a deal on a 23-24 CP, I might even give it a try on this 103. I appreciate your input, It's good to hear how others get it done. Many 2T tuners seem to be a bit secretive, but I can't blame them I have countless hours spent on these things. |
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 6, 2019 9:40:35 GMT -5
Many 2T tuners seem to be a bit secretive, but I can't blame them I have countless hours spent on these things. I can. lol Aside from actual competitive racing teams. This ain't life or death. We ain't out here like the Street Outlaws drag racing for $5,000 a pass. Those gears are wild though. No wonder the HI crowd is so fast! You find the right downhill section and you oughta have the fastest small scooter on Earth with gears like that. It looks like you've got a 130/70-12 rear tire too. Same thing most of the long case clones use. Those range from 10-13.5:1 mostly. I'm sure there's some difference in the CVT, but I wouldn't think it's that much. I've never tried gearing like that, but it seems to me that when you're trying to put it under extreme load (heavy rider and tall gearing), then a big ol' carb is the last thing you need if you have a desire for a snappy throttle and a good takeoff. I sometimes think I'm doing something wrong, because most of the world appears to love a big carb and I've done alright with fairly small stuff. If you read comments for my TPR build, you can find recommendation for as large as a 34mm carb. Those things are about as big as the engine is! I'm using a 24 PHBL and think it would likely act about the same ATM with a 21mm PHBG. Then again, I can't do 70MPH on a stock scooter like a lot of people, so...  I did try carbs years ago on Project 90 though. The big (to me) 28mm cooled the cylinder better at the expense of being harder to tune and having worse throttle response. That's all it did. The 14mm stock carb was just as capable of speed as the 28mm (just ran high CHTs). 19-21mm all worked well and kept it cool. Granted, that was an 8,500RPM peak power 96cc. Still, it's hard for me to believe that 28-34mm carbs are a necessity for many builds. |
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Post by Lucass2T on Nov 6, 2019 13:14:36 GMT -5
I believe you can better pick the smaller size if you had to choose between a big or small carb. I mean, we're not racing it to its limits 100% of the time, its not nessecary. I think you can compare it to a turbo. Bigger is more power but laggy af. Big carbs will camouflage bad cvt tuning and mediocre engine health because of the peak power it will give in the end. But drivability is awful.
Real racing 2t's do perfect with smaller carbs. Best example, TM kz10 engines. 34mm carb on a 125cc, but 50hp. Some kids slap a 34mm on a 70cc...do the math...
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I did try carbs years ago on Project 90 though. The big (to me) 28mm cooled the cylinder better at the expense of being harder to tune and having worse throttle response. That's all it did. The 14mm stock carb was just as capable of speed as the 28mm (just ran high CHTs). 19-21mm all worked well and kept it cool. Granted, that was an 8,500RPM peak power 96cc. Still, it's hard for me to believe that 28-34mm carbs are a necessity for many builds.