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Post by GrumpyUnk on Sept 13, 2020 8:11:55 GMT -5
The compression number should be totally adequate to get the engine to run. I understand the pear shape thing from a UK view, from WWII movies at least. I do not have any sort of clue as to why they picked on that fruit. It is one fruit that will go from "under-ripe", to "good to eat" to "Ooooh! I don't want that" in about 20 minutes. Something that quickly spoils??? tom
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 9:29:25 GMT -5
So i wanted to wait a bit before i jump back on here and test and research topics till Im blue in the face and ask for help.
Heres a quick recap of what I've been up to with this thing..
So i decided to say screw it and buy a 80cc bbk from amazon and just rebuild the top half of the scooter... since i wasnt getting anywhere with what i was trying... and it has like 2700 miles on the od..
Take the old motor setup apart and notice theres what i would consider a fair amount of carbon build up in the head an on the top of the piston.. so time for some lovin anyways...
Kit arrives come with everything head, jug, piston, cam, whole shabang...
Here was the 1st maybe this is whats wrong moment..
I look at the new piston and notice its about the same as the old one... measure.. sure enough its the same size 47mm..
I go.. Ok... Ive been jetting and tuning the scooter like its a factory motor not a bbk... so im jetting it super lean for having a bbk on it when i got it already...
Im excited now as ive found something wrong..
I assemble the new motor... everything goes together well.. I watched like 5 different videos for Assembly and torque specs.. all went fine..
fresh oil
Jet the carb main to 100 for starters 35 pilot
fire it up
Starts.. runs.. minor idle adjustment seems solid..
Heres one thing quick i want to get out of the way.. i know about break-in... These scooters are going to live up north and maybe get 50 miles on them a year.. so when i read about break-in procedure being no wot, vary rpm, take it easy for first 200 miles... its going to take 5 years to break this thing it..
For me... idle 5 min shut down.. idle and rev to 4000 vary for 5 min... shutdown.. rev to 7000 vary rpm for 10 min...
Broke or Broke In!!!
So i take the scooter out fresh rebuild.. and the performance is about the same.. slightly faster on the top and sluggish everywhere else.. but motor wise seems to run ok.. So i start with the jets.. test about 3-5 different main jets..
Settle on a 95 main and 35 pilot
Maybe 30 mph flat ground and 20 up same test hill
so sucks..
I know its only a 50cc
so
Since the motor is running ok i drive into clutch tuning
Heres another thing... Im not looking for a rocket ship.. I just need happy running and somewhat reliable scooter.. rollers I try all kinds of variator weights and springs form 4 gram sliders to 10g rollers and everything in between also new clutch shoes and red clutch springs
all colors of contra springs
tons of combos looking for the best performance..
Things where on the up and up...
I ended up with this combo...
Heres currently the scooter setup.. Theres a disaster coming here...
50cc bbk to 72cc 47mm piston Stock cam Aftermarket Amazon Cheap Carb 18mm 95 MJ 35 Pilot Factory airbox factory Pipe
Gates Powerlink Belt PL20507
Stock Variator with 6.5g rollers
Stock Clutch with shoes
red clutch shoe springs and stock contra spring
Heres where everything went bad and i really need help
While testing and putting in the current setup i had a problem occure.. i had been leaving the seat unbolted for ease of access while tuning..
I fire up scooter.. go about a half mine to test current setup and come to a stop on top of the hill and notice the scooter is idling funny.. reving from 2000 up to 2800 and back down again.. seems od.. drive back home... other then the idle scooter was finally starting to come around performance wise it seemed..
Get home.. Pull seat.. and see that somehow during either the last seat install or driving I ripped the wires out of the auto enricher crimps and pulled them out of the plastic plug and THEY ARE TOUCHING TOGETHER!!!!
THIS HAS LEAD ME TO MY CURRENT ISSUE..
So i get old choke off old carb and install.. go to start the scooter.. cold start..
and it refuses to start unless i twist the throttle a bit.. when it does start it runs RICH.. and i mean RICH.. faint puffs of black out pipe at 2000 rpm.. stinky rich.. so im like wtf...
Only thing i had changed was the choke.. So i start thinking maybe when it was running with the choke wires touching i really messed something electrical up.. I know you can test the auto enricher by applying 12v to make sure its working and closing off the port.. So then i compared old choke to ripped wires choke and noticed the needles seemed different length..
I only had the one old choke to test so i said screw it and just bought a whole new carb..
So get the new carb... install my jets... hook it up and same results.. super rich when cold start..
So i start electrical trouble shooting.. im ohming out wires.. my meter is a GB something.. decent meter
Heres something quick my meter hates the scooter when its running i get like magnetic interference when trying to test almost anything when its running.. meter goes crazy bounces all over as soon as i get the probes inside of engine compartment when trying to measure the AC at the choke connector.. its digital... so i borrowed a fluke from work and works better...
measure choke voltage and only get 8.5v Ac at choke when idling at 1500rpm seemed low and made me think maybe i fried something in the stator when the choke wires where touching..
So i bought and installed a new stator (glad parts are cheap) same issue.. still rich at idle when cold... when the enricher warms up and closes the choke off scooter runs fine
Thats the key when the Choke is Closed the scooter runs fine
So i change pilot jet to 32
Less Black smoke.. still rich as hell.. and scooter warms up enricher closes.. scooter is fine
So lost..
I must of spent 4 nights watching videos.. lookin thru forums.. reading.. looking for answers
SInce parts are cheap... (adding up now)
I order new rectifier/ blue cdi racing box
figure only thing i havent changed..
So here we go
get those parts last night
Scooter starts and runs great.. not rich at idle when cold.. i had to make some quick carb adjustments.. but idled at 2800 with enricher open then dropped down to 2000 when closed.. i was so excited...
It sat and idled the whole time i put the plastics back on.. so like 10 minutes.. great..
I took it out and ran it... runs great.. seemed lean on the bottom end but i had switch the jet down to a 32.. up to almost 40 on flat ground... man was i excited... finally it was running good.. good enough for me.. i figured little retuning now that its running well and we are good.. (saw best performance with these new parts)
i Have a A9 cam im waiting to put in till i get it figured all out..
Ride it around for 10 mins... Best its ever run!!!
go home
Wait about a hour
Go out to start it to see
And guess what
Back to rich at idle on cold start.. have to hold throttle open to start and keep it running till enricher shuts off then runs fine...
Im going to go insane here..
So to sum it up
my current problem is super rich on cold start till enricher shuts fuel off
Ive replaced Stator/trigger coil cdi regulator
I even turn the fuel off with shut off i installed and ran it dry.. let it cool down.. to see of it was somehow flooding out from float adjustment.. Nope...
And just to clarify..
Start scooter cold... have to open throttle a fuzz to start... Little puffs of black smoke out exhaust... super rich.. till enrichner closes then fine..
All started after the wires touched..
HELP
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 9:36:20 GMT -5
I know you guys are going to read this and be like this guys a idiot.. thru the kitchen sink at it.. must not troubleshoot for beans.. but this thing has me just beat down..
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 9:39:32 GMT -5
I dont understand where all the fuel is coming from.. it has to be electrical maybe I fried new cdi or regulator.. I didnt look at it again since last night.. I feel like something electrical is screwing me..
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Sept 24, 2020 10:36:13 GMT -5
If the by valve is not sealed tight when it extends, fuel and air(more fuel) will get fed to the intake. You can check with a tapered rubber plug(with opening all the way thru) and length of tubing. Put the adapter pointy end into the air port(inlet) on the incoming side of the carb. About 2:00 o'clock position. You can see the passage go straight to the base of the byvalve to be sure. Blow. If the engine is cold, you should be able to blow air through. The port plug thingy is retracted and allowing fuel:air to feed into the engine for richer mix and higher cold rpm. When the engine runs, AC volts are pushed to the heater coil(?) inside the byvalve. It heats up, melts some wax or whatever, and extends the probe to cut off airflow through the port(also fuel). There is a video on-site about testing the byvalve. I do not remember the power source used, but it was definitely doable by rooky wrench turners. If the engine is hot, the port should be blocked and you should not be able to blow through it. Test done.
Other things to check for an very rich condition. Leaky float valve. Stuck or sticking float valve. Most times if really stuck you'd leak fuel out the air cleaner, especially if th vacuum petcock was allowing fuel to flow when it should be cut off. Clogged air filter. Blocked air inlet. The 'nozzle' on the end of the air filter box is fitted with a screen. Get enough road 'stuff' collected, and it cannot flow air as designed/desired. It will choke airflow off, and cause problems. I think it is a forgotten 'feature'. Clogged foam screen/filter inside the air cleaner assembly. Nests of any sort in same. Trying to touch both sides of the equation: air and fuel. excess fuel or inadequate air. take yur pick. If the float is binding on the hinge pin, or the needle sticking in the bore leading to the valve seat, you can get too much fuel. If the slide does not move freely.... you will get fuel, but lack for air. It should raise and lower freely when probed with a digit(finger). It should also have the diaphragm chamber sealed and an intact diaphragem. It should make wheezy sounds when you lift and drop the slide. The needle should not be curved... enough? tom
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 11:14:57 GMT -5
I checked the by valve on the new carb thats on the scooter with 12v to make sure it worked before i installed it using a 12v cosel supply it extended out...
ive already did the hose test as to blowing thru port passage with valve open(cold) and warm (closed)...
it has the same rich condition with 2 different carbs on it.. ive checked float hight 3 different times with the current carb on it.. doesn't stick moves freely
Air box has screen removed... filter foam is clean
Vaccume petcok is drilled out and hose replaced with shut off inline and vaccume ports on petcock and intake plugged..
Carb slide moves freely makes the old man breathing hard sound when lifting and dropping the slide..
ive tried cracking the airbox and starting the scooter cold still rich
i feel its electrical..
just dont know what or how...
i installed the new cdi and regulator last night and it started right up like it was supposed to... high idle with choke on... not rich... dropped down when by valve closed ... ran great... parked it for 1 hour... back to rich as shit..
that was all i did..
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 11:16:02 GMT -5
i tried to trouble shoot as much as i could before resorting to here as i know there are a lot of common problems..
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 11:18:49 GMT -5
i know that the shorting the by valve wires together started the problem..
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 11:23:48 GMT -5
By looking at the generic electrical diagram for the scooter i can tell its not very complicated system.. but i dont know if im getting screwed by replacing a part at a time and have faulty parts ruin that part like a merry go round of bad parts... instead of just replacing them all at once
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 11:28:29 GMT -5
Heres the thing.. ive worked on lots of things and am 40 years old... service my 2 stoke outboards.. rebuilt 2 different 225hp outboards... tons of shit... an this thing is rich... black smoke burn your eyes rich.. till the by valve closes..
Its like its so rich that when the by valve is open that extra fuel loads the motor up till it will die... if i dont hold the throttle open slightly it will die.. as soon as the by valve starts to close... can tell its working as well as it gets hot... motor runs fine...
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 12:13:35 GMT -5
Basically only 2 things can effect how much fuel the motor gets.. the carb and choke.. in the scooters case an enricher..
Right..
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Post by mikehailwood on Sept 24, 2020 13:01:46 GMT -5
Basically only 2 things can effect how much fuel the motor gets.. the carb and choke.. in the scooters case an enricher.. Right.. Based on your testing, the enricher is fine. It sounds like you're getting too much fuel at start-up. And you may be getting too much fuel after warm-up too, even though it seems to run fine then. I've had CV carbs which wouldn't start normally without opening the throttle excessively to keep them running. This was due to a float valve not seating properly letting in a just a little excess fuel and flooding the engine. I know you've tried a couple different carbs. But...I've gotten cheap clone carbs which had a lot of junk in them. If it was my carb, I'd take it apart, clean it, test all passages with starting fluid, WD40 or you preferred spray cleaner. I'd assemble it, then I'd bench test it overnight (outside) by hooking up to a temporary fuel source to see if the exterior of the float bowl was getting wet or fuel was backing up into the venturi area.
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 13:25:44 GMT -5
I will do it.. I'm down to try anything.. I refuse to lose to this thing.. Strange thing thou to me is what happened last night... with the swapping of the cdi and rectifier.. Started cold... no over rich... idled fine on its own thru the enricher cycle.. then scooter ran great for test ride.. then 1 hour later back to crap... when i get home i will give the carb another go over again... just to be on the safe side..
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Post by tortoise2 on Sept 24, 2020 13:37:59 GMT -5
Unknown if related . . but might also test resistors, if you haven't already. Believe one is for headlight high/low and the other for enricher.
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Post by 1speed on Sept 24, 2020 14:08:54 GMT -5
I looked into that. I dont think it's on the scooter.. cant find it anywhere. And in the hours of scouring the internet for an answer. Seen some scooters dont even have it. And that's its built into the new enrichers... seen it on the diagram..
Here's where I was always going with that idea.
If I did have one. And then the shorting of the enricher wires for a bit could of lead to burning it out. And somehow effecting other electrical components.
But never found one..
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