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Post by pete130 on May 3, 2023 1:08:11 GMT -5
I had that same clutch and bell that came with the 94cc full motor, but sold when I sold all the 94cc parts, I do have a KN ajustable clutch exactly same as stage6 but stronger made for a 100cc, as well as the dry clutch, and there cheaper for the 50cc model than the 300cc, I understand not wanting to but to begin with as experience. With this build I desided to just get the best I could buy, saves spending money on parts that don't cut it. The malossi delta is a heave duty clutch, I like the idea of easy adjustment of ajustable clutches, plus you have so much power I don't think you would even know if it's not spot on lol. I was worried about clutch slip with high hp and a lot of the parts for the smaller cc sized motors aren't really made for the hp, well there are parts but as you would know very expensive and hard to buy and ship, im in Australia and shipping is a night mear. Love to here bike running and ridding I bet your keen as well That's a good way to do things. I've had to redo a few bits because there's just no map for what works with my combo. There just aren't enough turbo engines and most people think the stock 23HP of the GTS is enough. I had a LOT of clutch slip with the stock clutch, I actually blew 3 of them(I had a pile of them to go through...) but I was still putting around 50HP to the ground even then. But you're right I can deal with a little slop at my level of power without too much worry. Don't think I would be hitting it to hard off the line, 63hp goes a long way lmao, I actually set my high out put motors to not be set up for stright out power at take off, as you would know with the 300cc has great tarque, my 132cc pulls off the line nicely and I can ride under power band has the tarque being stroked to get along fine ,but when you hit it, it's a diffrent bike |
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Post by pete130 on May 3, 2023 4:08:44 GMT -5
I did think about it, but I really hate the way that looks. I've also got dual rads and a big fan which would be hard to mount out front I'd rather have it going through the leg shield than on the front. I'm gonna fiberglass up a cover to make it look a little more 'installed' soon so that should help. I did this on my sr iner plastic will have holes to just line up rads so there only sticking out at top a small amount, I did a mock up of inner and bought another to fic mistakes on first one as tou can emagin cutting rads in tight from just looking at it I did get close but will look good when I'm done iv tryed to keep as stock looking as possible but the race motor sort of gives it away lol  |
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Kaos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaos on May 4, 2023 9:48:39 GMT -5
I did think about it, but I really hate the way that looks. I've also got dual rads and a big fan which would be hard to mount out front I'd rather have it going through the leg shield than on the front. I'm gonna fiberglass up a cover to make it look a little more 'installed' soon so that should help. I did this on my sr iner plastic will have holes to just line up rads so there only sticking out at top a small amount, I did a mock up of inner and bought another to fic mistakes on first one as tou can emagin cutting rads in tight from just looking at it I did get close but will look good when I'm done iv tryed to keep as stock looking as possible but the race motor sort of gives it away lol Thats basically what I was hoping to do, but the forks actually extend INTO the leg shield on the buddy making it impossible to mount them quite like that. They're ok like they are, but I wish I could have gone more vertical. |
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Post by pete130 on May 4, 2023 19:32:58 GMT -5
I did this on my sr iner plastic will have holes to just line up rads so there only sticking out at top a small amount, I did a mock up of inner and bought another to fic mistakes on first one as tou can emagin cutting rads in tight from just looking at it I did get close but will look good when I'm done iv tryed to keep as stock looking as possible but the race motor sort of gives it away lol Thats basically what I was hoping to do, but the forks actually extend INTO the leg shield on the buddy making it impossible to mount them quite like that. They're ok like they are, but I wish I could have gone more vertical. In hind site I would have got one that would have fit were old one was, there was a lot of room, but had already bough t new ones, bike looks bad with out plastics, but its only the cap and tops that stick out 50mm and I plan to put black grill to hide more. It should look good if it comes out how I want it to. |
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Kaos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaos on Jul 26, 2023 10:18:30 GMT -5
So its been a while since I updated this... Because the bike has just been running nicely. After upgrading my radiators that fixed the last issue I had with the scooter and I've been mostly just enjoying it over the summer. Unfortunately its developed a new issue... The bearings seem to be going in my cheap Chinese turbocharger, resulting in lower peak boost. Its still working, but my peak boost has dropped from 25PSI down to about 12PSI. It still rips. But not as well as it did. Because I'm pushing the RHB31 harder than it was really meant to be pushed, I've decided to upgrade it. I got a Garett GT12 turbo, which will put out more air at lower boost (Which means more power) AND is good to about 35PSI.  While I'm upgrading that I'm fabbing up a new header. I've had issues with the current one hitting the ground on relatively mild right hand turns which is annoying and unsafe so I might as well solve that while I'm at it... |
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Post by dragzooks on Jul 30, 2023 10:31:18 GMT -5
Just joined the board and after talking about my upcoming build a guy pointed me in your direction to your build thread. Super cool stuff you’re doing! I’ve got a kymco 50 that I’m about to start building. I come from motorcycle dragracing (old kz and gs big bore stuff to now busas and Harley’s) and plan to apply the same stuff we do to them. I build my own engines/chassis/everything myself so I ’ve done standalones before using maxxecu and Holley hp so I figured for this scooter I could easily adapt a microsquirt from DIY autotune for about $300 for the ecu. Grom throttle body and small electric fuel pump and adjustable regulator should be adequate. I’ve got a spare Chinese 157qm engine to build and was thinking of the Taida 4 valve head and a 232cc bbk. Build it all proper, not just slap it together. Got small machine shop, dyno, fab equipment tig/mig etc so no problem there and buddy has flowbench and everything else to do valve jobs, headwork, and anything else I don’t have equipment for. The parts are way cheaper for the most part than they are for the big Suzukis so although it will still overall cost some $ it won’t be ridiculous.
So I see you using megasquirt. How did you go about getting the crank signal? The stock sensor on mine seems like some sort of variable reluctor sensor but it’s only 1 wire and all the vr sensors I’ve had experience with have 2 wires. Wouldn’t be hard to swap a different sensor on it and add some teeth to the outside of flywheel or just a trigger wheel but if I can use the stock stuff that’d be easier.
So what do you think of yours versus a two stroke powerplant! I seen where someone said even your built turbo would still be beat by built two stroke. 🤷🏻♂️. I’m like you, I like tuning with a laptop, not opening up a carb and changing jets. I like my wideband and datalog. Did you have to upgrade the stator to get enough dc power for the fuel pump/injection. I’ve seen where they sell 3 phase stators/rotors to beef up the charging system.
Anyway, killer build man. Look forward to hearing back from ya and following along as your new turbo gets fitted up!
Robert
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Kaos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaos on Jul 30, 2023 12:15:03 GMT -5
Just joined the board and after talking about my upcoming build a guy pointed me in your direction to your build thread. Super cool stuff you’re doing! I’ve got a kymco 50 that I’m about to start building. I come from motorcycle dragracing (old kz and gs big bore stuff to now busas and Harley’s) and plan to apply the same stuff we do to them. I build my own engines/chassis/everything myself so I ’ve done standalones before using maxxecu and Holley hp so I figured for this scooter I could easily adapt a microsquirt from DIY autotune for about $300 for the ecu. Grom throttle body and small electric fuel pump and adjustable regulator should be adequate. I’ve got a spare Chinese 157qm engine to build and was thinking of the Taida 4 valve head and a 232cc bbk. Build it all proper, not just slap it together. Got small machine shop, dyno, fab equipment tig/mig etc so no problem there and buddy has flowbench and everything else to do valve jobs, headwork, and anything else I don’t have equipment for. The parts are way cheaper for the most part than they are for the big Suzukis so although it will still overall cost some $ it won’t be ridiculous. So I see you using megasquirt. How did you go about getting the crank signal? The stock sensor on mine seems like some sort of variable reluctor sensor but it’s only 1 wire and all the vr sensors I’ve had experience with have 2 wires. Wouldn’t be hard to swap a different sensor on it and add some teeth to the outside of flywheel or just a trigger wheel but if I can use the stock stuff that’d be easier. So what do you think of yours versus a two stroke powerplant! I seen where someone said even your built turbo would still be beat by built two stroke. 🤷🏻♂️. I’m like you, I like tuning with a laptop, not opening up a carb and changing jets. I like my wideband and datalog. Did you have to upgrade the stator to get enough dc power for the fuel pump/injection. I’ve seen where they sell 3 phase stators/rotors to beef up the charging system. Anyway, killer build man. Look forward to hearing back from ya and following along as your new turbo gets fitted up! Robert Sounds like you've had a lot of fun bikes, and have the skills to do this right!! I'm using a lot of the same techniques I used when building drag cars so you already know a lot of what it'll take. I was lucky on the crank signal that the Vespa GTS300 engine I swapped in was fuel injected stock so it had a 24-2 crank trigger wheel on it already. I just had to calculate the trigger angle and I just used the engine's stock trigger wheel, likewise with the throttle body. I believe the trigger on a GY6 engine works more like a 'distributor' trigger would, where you just use it as a simple one wire trigger when configuring your microsquirt. The power on this thing is UNREAL. It pushes 63HP and goes like mad.... LOTS of people have said it would still be beat by a tuned 2 stroke, and maybe sometime I'll get to test that but I will say that I also own a Yamaha RD350 2 stroke twin that is nowhere NEAR as quick as my Turbo Buddy. They actually put power down quite similarly, where the 2T starts to really pull when it gets into the pipe and the my scoot does similarly when the turbo gets fully spooled. At the end of the day, 2T or 4T its about HP and torque. You can make more HP per CC on a 2T but I've got 4x the CCs of a built 70cc, and 2-3x the power. A 2Fast Minarelli build(One of the better setups) can get around 30HP, I've got 63HP on a bike of similar weight and size. A lot of those who say that have never ridden a turbo bike, nor do they realize how much power you can make running E85 and methanol injection and a lot of boost. They build from kits, I'm off doing my own custom stuff. Not knocking them but they're the same people who told me a turbo would never work on a scooter in the first place  I didn't have to upgrade my stator as again my GTS engine came to the rescue. It was setup to run a lot of accessories that I don't have so there was power to spare running this thing. It already had an electric EFI pump, it already had an ECU, it already had dual electric fans, the whole dash on the GTS is electronic. So I could probably run even more stuff if I needed. I'm not sure on the GY6 how much power they actually put out on the stock stator, but like you said there are upgrade ones. Like you pointed out, stuff will be cheaper than a build Hayabusa for example. Thats the fun of scooters, you can mod the hells outa them without breaking the bank. My build is stupid expensive compared to lots of them, and I don't think I'm in the build more than maybe $2500 with all the bonkers stuff I've done. Good luck with your build, and let me know if you've got questions, I'm happy to help and you won't find too many people who've done a Megasquirt scooter. |
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Post by dragzooks on Jul 30, 2023 22:22:39 GMT -5
You DID luck out on that. 24-2 is what gen 2 busas come with also. Did you set up your crank trigger offsets using a degree wheel to figure out where the pickup sits in relation to the missing teeth and then once you got it running lock the timing to a set value in the software and verify with timing light that what you command in software is what you actually are getting? Prolly had to since your is pretty one off. Some of the bike guys I know who are less tech savvy and buy preterminated harnesses just throw it on and will either use settings handed down from a buddy or even heard of people “eyeballing” the sensor position and “backing out” the numbers from an arbitrary point, basically trial and error till it fires. Couple guys weren’t grasping it too well that just cause it runs and you’ve entered say 35 degrees in the map doesn’t mean that’s what the engine is seeing.
Your scoot must be insane with 60+ hp! Sweet! Have you had any problem with lifting the head? That’s kinda my biggest fear in these after seeing that the head is only held on with little m6x1.0 studs (if my thread gauge vision was working good that day, 🤣 maybe m7, but def small)
I’ve done a few turbos in the past for sustomers but never for myself really. Mostly have built all motor stuff setups and for pwr adder just laid timing back and shot em full of dope! Dry with the ecu adding the extra fuel. With how little and fragile the rod/crank appear (and head bolts) are in these gy6 I don’t know if it could take much if any of that instant hit nitrous does. Maybe with an aftermarket crank/rod and whip up some oversize head studs in the lathe/drill/tap cases/cyl/head.
So you ride your around no problem right? I want to keep it streetable
For the most part, not building a dedicated drag scooter or nothing like that. But I don’t mind having to put a couple dirt bike radiators and little electric pump on it. I get hyped just thinking about it, 🤣, I live for building wild different stuff these.
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Kaos
Scoot Enthusiast
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Post by Kaos on Jul 31, 2023 10:15:19 GMT -5
You DID luck out on that. 24-2 is what gen 2 busas come with also. Did you set up your crank trigger offsets using a degree wheel to figure out where the pickup sits in relation to the missing teeth and then once you got it running lock the timing to a set value in the software and verify with timing light that what you command in software is what you actually are getting? Prolly had to since your is pretty one off. Some of the bike guys I know who are less tech savvy and buy preterminated harnesses just throw it on and will either use settings handed down from a buddy or even heard of people “eyeballing” the sensor position and “backing out” the numbers from an arbitrary point, basically trial and error till it fires. Couple guys weren’t grasping it too well that just cause it runs and you’ve entered say 35 degrees in the map doesn’t mean that’s what the engine is seeing. Your scoot must be insane with 60+ hp! Sweet! Have you had any problem with lifting the head? That’s kinda my biggest fear in these after seeing that the head is only held on with little m6x1.0 studs (if my thread gauge vision was working good that day, 🤣 maybe m7, but def small) I’ve done a few turbos in the past for sustomers but never for myself really. Mostly have built all motor stuff setups and for pwr adder just laid timing back and shot em full of dope! Dry with the ecu adding the extra fuel. With how little and fragile the rod/crank appear (and head bolts) are in these gy6 I don’t know if it could take much if any of that instant hit nitrous does. Maybe with an aftermarket crank/rod and whip up some oversize head studs in the lathe/drill/tap cases/cyl/head. So you ride your around no problem right? I want to keep it streetable For the most part, not building a dedicated drag scooter or nothing like that. But I don’t mind having to put a couple dirt bike radiators and little electric pump on it. I get hyped just thinking about it, 🤣, I live for building wild different stuff these. Yeah, I measured my crank angle offset and confirmed it with a timing light as the GTS has a window and mark for doing so... No way I was gonna run boost without knowing for sure where my timing was! I also decoded the timing map from the stock ECU to get a baseline for my setup. Its a lot more aggressive than stock was now, but it was a good base for knowing what it needed.
So far I've not seen any indications of head lift surprisingly, that was one of my big worries with cranking up the boost. Honestly though its only at peak boost (25psi) for a second most of the time, as it pulls extremely quickly up to max speed and you have to let off. It rides around totally great as long as I keep off the throttle, even totally off boost the engine is about 25HP NA so its not slow but as long as I keep outa the boost its pretty easily manageable. If I DON'T keep outa the boost it turns into a wild beast that's trying it's hardest to kill me but so far we've got an understanding Below about 10PSI its fine, but as it crosses 12PSI or so it'll start to try to spin the tire, or if the tire are well warmed up just pull up the front end if I'm not paying attention
The only real issue is that boost starts to come in at 4000RPM, so its easy to spool up before the clutch is even fully engaged. Just have to learn to be light on the throttle to cruise around.
There are some good aftermarket rod and crank sets for the GY6's, I wouldn't worry too much about strength if you go with good parts. I've seen people use fairly big NOS shots on them, and people spin them up past 11K rpm without any issues.
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Post by dragzooks on Aug 7, 2023 14:31:52 GMT -5
Hey since I know you know what you’re doing with electronics, figure I’d just ask you. I’m working on this scoot right now to just get it rideable in mostly stock form while I finalize what direction I’m gonna go with the build and start getting parts ordered. So it’s a kymco super 8 50r 4t. Someone swapped in a 139qmb outta whatever, I know cause it’s got the little black/silver metallized ID plate on the van shroud and it says like 2008 (totally different year than the 2015 frame) and it’s got the 10” rear wheel off the donor and the cases are totally different patina that the rest of the scoot: So anyway, it runs fine that’s not the problem. It’s not charging. I put a new stator and rotor on it and verified the ac output at the 2 phases (white/yellow wires) to ground. Got the expected 20-70 ish volts from idle to revved up. All good stator output. However it won’t show anything above baseline battery voltage say 12.6. So I figured voltage rec/reg. Dig into it and find the kid had been screwing with the wiring and obviously had no idea what he was doing. It originally had dc cdi and three phase charging system before he swapped the motor. I a side not I have converted it to ac cdi with the proper stator cause I figured with ac system I can kick start it if battery goes dead on the road and not be stuck somewhere on the side of road. I got a 4 wire rec/reg off a Honda scooter from the 80 and wired it in to the bike how I figured it should be . Yellow of stator to one the phase inputs on rec/reg, white from stator to the other phase green to ground on battery/chassis - and red to battery positive thru a fuse. Being that the scooter was originally a 3 phase charging system and had lights running on dc (on with key at all times) versus a typical 4 stroke gy6 50 with the lights running on ac tapping into the yellow between stator and rectifier I’m wondering if that’s my problem. Do these little 4 wire (half wave  ) rectifier/regs need that headlight load before they start working properly When I unplug the rec/reg with the bike running, the idle speed jumps up so that leads me to believe the rec/reg is not fried (when plugged in and the stator gets “loaded” it “drags” the engine down-that’s my logic at least. Also I just tore all the bodywork off to see exactly where the harness has been hacked into. I did find something I’m not familiar with on bigger Japanese bikes. There’s a little power resistor mounted under the floorboard that is factory for sure. It’s a 5 watt 12 ohm resistor and goes to 2 green with black stripe wires. I’m thinking it’s got something to do with charging system or maybe the little choke plunger deal on the carb. The wiring diagrams I have found online so far for this bike are almost unlegible. When I expand them it just blurrs so bad I can make anything out worth a f-/$! Any help would be appreciated. I’m in the process of rewiring the engine/cdi and charging system real nicely with heat shrink and mx150 molex connectors I got at the shop. I just want to tie this converted engine/cdi/charging system nicely into the oem harness and be done with it until I get my parts in and start building it. Btw, I’ve got a couple of those 4 prong little regulators and have tried them both and both cause the idle speed variation. This doesn’t rule out that both are NOT fried but I’m more skeptical of something not wired right cause I’m unfamiliar with these style of charging systems. Half wave/full wave and compatibility with these 4 prong rec/regs. |
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Kaos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaos on Aug 8, 2023 16:08:16 GMT -5
SOUNDS like you've got it wired correctly for the regulator. I'd question if you have a short somewhere thats pulling more power than your stator can push. I'd say disconnect EVERYTHING but the stator, regulator, battery, and coil and see what your voltage is to the battery. If its 13.5-14.5 you're working. If not you've got some other issue.
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Post by dragzooks on Aug 12, 2023 19:38:32 GMT -5
Yeah it’s got me stumped and I’ve been working on bikes forever. I’ve totally rewired the engine/cdi/rectifier-regulator with all new wire and all those parts are new. I completely redid it all basically isolating it from the oem harness to eliminate any possibilty of stock harness being involved. The only connection to the bike itself now if the positive output and ground from the regulator going straight to the battery positive and ground terminal and even rewired the main chassis ground from the battery neg with beefier wire and eyelet lugs to the frame.
It doesn’t make sense to me that I’m putting out the correct AC voltage from the stator (~20-70 volts from idle to revved up) and I’ve tried 3 different new regulators. Out of 3 I’d expect at least one to be good, even considering their cheapness/source. They are the little heat sink style with the white 4 prong plug. I’ve probed them with dmm and the reading pretty much are what’s to be expected and match the write Brent did about determining the pinout. I’ve tested the forward diodes and reverse biased and they seem I order. Only thing I don’t know about them is if they are half or full wave, that being something I’m relatively inexperienced in as all the bigger stuff I’ve worked on for years are full 3 phase stators. I’m no electrical engineer but I consider myself pretty knowledgeable of it in general. Are there any electrical engineers or otherwise gurus around here to ask?
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Kaos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 185
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Post by Kaos on Aug 12, 2023 22:32:27 GMT -5
Yeah it’s got me stumped and I’ve been working on bikes forever. I’ve totally rewired the engine/cdi/rectifier-regulator with all new wire and all those parts are new. I completely redid it all basically isolating it from the oem harness to eliminate any possibilty of stock harness being involved. The only connection to the bike itself now if the positive output and ground from the regulator going straight to the battery positive and ground terminal and even rewired the main chassis ground from the battery neg with beefier wire and eyelet lugs to the frame. It doesn’t make sense to me that I’m putting out the correct AC voltage from the stator (~20-70 volts from idle to revved up) and I’ve tried 3 different new regulators. Out of 3 I’d expect at least one to be good, even considering their cheapness/source. They are the little heat sink style with the white 4 prong plug. I’ve probed them with dmm and the reading pretty much are what’s to be expected and match the write Brent did about determining the pinout. I’ve tested the forward diodes and reverse biased and they seem I order. Only thing I don’t know about them is if they are half or full wave, that being something I’m relatively inexperienced in as all the bigger stuff I’ve worked on for years are full 3 phase stators. I’m no electrical engineer but I consider myself pretty knowledgeable of it in general. Are there any electrical engineers or otherwise gurus around here to ask? Yeah, I agree at least one ought to work. Have you tried to run the regulator on the stator hooked to absolutely nothing and checking voltage out the other side of the regulator? That'd tell you for certain if the regulator is working with the stator. I don't THINK being half wave or full wave should matter, though I confess I'm not certain. Might be time to start your own thread so it gets more visibility to see if perhaps someone else here has a good answer for ya. There's a lot of smart scooter builders here. |
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Post by dragzooks on Aug 13, 2023 19:30:57 GMT -5
Good idea, I actually tried that when I first got the scooter and was still dealing with where the kid had spliced into the wiring trying to get a single phase swapped in older qmb139 setup to work with the kymco 3 phase oem rectifier/factory wiring harness. It only put out like 2 volts dc but I just kinda ignored the reading cause wasn’t sure if the stator/rec-reg were any good at that point and I have honestly always tested em hooked up so wasn’t sure if they needed to be “against a load”, so to say, before they would put out the right voltage.
I’m gonna try that now that I’m sure the stator is working, I got everything wired up good, and 99% sure I have a functioning rectifier/regulator! I’ll report back! Thanks
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Post by dragzooks on Aug 13, 2023 20:09:01 GMT -5
Well mixed results but I’m getting somewhere at least. With the pwr and ground from the regulator disconnected, it’s putting out basically 5 volts…4.98 to be exact and it doesn’t seem to matter what rpm. Now, since my engine/cdi/regulator isn’t wired into the bikes harness directly anymore (just the regs output to the battery), the bikes kill switch and key switch don’t affect on it’s running. I still need to switch the key on cause the starter is still tied in the harness as they come oem. So while testing, and this is with the regulator still hooked to the battery, I happened to switch off the key. This effectively disconnects any load from the engine/charging system. When I do that the battery jumps up to a little over 13 volts. Soon as I switch the key back on and the lights are engaged, battery voltage plummets. It’s like the battery has a dead cell maybe (it will test ok voltage just sitting but I always throw a jump pack on it when I crank it over just out of habit knowing that this has charging issues??? Doesn’t explain the low output from the regulator unless that’s normal for them when “unloaded” (outputs unhooked) |
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) rectifier/regs need that headlight load before they start working properly