lets move on another long lastign issue

[br4inl3ss]

hi
its me ocne again.  with another problem.
whait. what ? how did you know idd come back with another issue....
its not like i had 3495763057245389 issues.... oh wait. i do.

well... i found the metallic noise. the variator boss is loose in the variator bushing, allowing the variator to wiggle alot.
fine. too much money spent on the full rebuild, ill buy a variator later on.
actual issue, is an electrical one.
ive had this issue since a long time, but people said ti was the battery then the starter then the relay.
brand new starter, new starter ( 1 month, didnt even turn for 30 second total yet ), brandnew relay ( installed 4 days ago, tested today ), new wiring harness ( scooter did about 2 km with it ).... we can say tis all brand new, right ?

with whatever battery ( my old 7ah, my unknown-age 7ah battery but seems to work good even load test good, my brother vino 4ah battery, my brother vino actual 6ah battery ). if the battery is full at 2.5/2.6v, it turns over but not fast enought to start untill its hot.
if bettery is at 2.12 or less, then voltage drop ( 9 to 10v ) and starter barely turn. when at 9v it wont even turn at all not even slowly.

the vino 4ah battery ( yup its a smaller battery but its in perfect condition and almost new ). it crank the vino like a red hot & sharpened katana in butter ( is this hot and sharp enought ? ). my 8ah battery can be charged at 12v, tested 12.5v on the scooter up untill i try to start it. voltage drop to 11v when cranking, and battery voltage drop very fast. i cant even hold it for 10 second and the battery will drop voltage to 9v, even if i stop cranking and voltage will never go up untill i charge it overnight on a Norco charger ( nope not in automotive mode. that would kill any small battery ).

i tested for parasitic draw, none ( 0.0016 amp with key on without headlights ). cannot test amp draw while cranking i dont have that tool. multimiter is limited to 15 amps. but i get 0.420 amp draw with headlights ( dual H4 LED ). thats including the +/- 0.0200 amp draw from the rectifier regulator ( 7 wire, 11 pole stator upgrade ).

btw the battery voltage drop happen without headlights. i tought it was it but nope.
it look like whatever starter ( old and new ) i use it will drain battery in a very fast manner ( 1-3 try with 4ah battery and about 10 try with proper size 7ah battery ).

i'm about to test with a car battery... sadly this is just a test with no revelent results.

the wire from battery to starter relay is not new but tested good. even on a totaled car i have access to. all the rest is new even the damn engine.

EDIT:
ive seen it charge the battery to 17-19v at high rpm testing the engine the other day but that was my old 7ah battery. ive been told that a dead battery can cause the regulator to not sense the battery voltage hence overcharging it.
also been told it could happens with no load ( headlights off ). it was also with old 7ah battery. with the 4ah vino battery the voltage went up to 16.1 with headlights unplugged, didnt go over 14.6 with headlights plugged. i guess they're right about load.

[GrumpyUnk]

A battery that has 12.6-12.7V is considered fully charged. But. It may have the VOLTS but not have the AMPS. The amps needed to power a starter motor will be held in a fully charged battery that has good internals. If damaged, it may not be able to produce any amperage over time. It will draw down the volts quickly.
I suggest your battery may be deficient.
Batteries installed in cars & trucks are rated in CCA - Cold Cranking Amps - which are the amount of amperage the battery can produce for a set time at a set temperature. Colder temps reduce battery capacity, even when fully charged, and brand new. So the measure is not the VOLTS but the AMPS.
Either get a new battery or get yours tested and I bet you will find it has very small amperage capacity, which is why the voltage drops so much after so little use. If AGM, you may pull off the plastic caps and inspect the glass mats to determine if they are bone dry. You may add some distilled H2O and gain back some capacity, but usually it doesn't work too long, or too well.
tom

[br4inl3ss]

thanks Tom.

i know that but what i dont know is how much of a voltage drop ( because there is not enought amp ) is normal with a good battery bein this small. i'm used to good old big ass car battery and i can test them easyly without any tool just ssome car parts and timer. been doing that for years with 100% spot on result. i dont ahve my paper but i know if a halogen h4 bulb last less than x time on a fully charged battery or drop the voltage when plugged, then its dead. no other way around. i know the timing for most car battery and i have a book filled with value for different specs battery ( size, cca, amp, floating voltage after x time after removing the charger, how fast floating voltage decay when applying small load, and so on ). but i have nothing like that for those small battery. so i cannot test them myself and load test made in part store/garage are very unreliable ( long experience either personal or friends/family member ). just in 2 years ive seen over 30 bad battery tested good. waste of time for both the employee and the customer.

the battery is a ATX7A from AJC ( the vino old battery is also a AJC but 4a. its what came on the scooter but it was too small ). they're very good for the price and last long enought but not that resistent to faulty charging system. better brand have way better resistence to that. im planning to buy a good Yuasa AGM battery soon, but no way ill pay that price if something is destroying my battery. already very very very low in budget with that unplanned full rebuild.

is it true that the regulator can overcharge the battery if the battery is completly done ? ive seen the overcharging both with old r/r's ( 4 wire stock 8 pole stator ) and brand new 7 wire r/r with 11 pole stator upgrade so i doubt its my r/r.

[GrumpyUnk]

If you remove the spark plug, I would expect you should be able to crank the engine for some number of minutes, not seconds. A low capacity battery, with damage, may not have enough amps to crank for more than a few seconds.
If your charging system is pumping AC - Alternating Current - to emphasize - into the battery, it will kill the battery. I do not have an idea of how long it takes to kill one, but it will happen. You can put a VOM lead on the + terminal and ground the other VOM lead, with the engine running and the VOM will indicate how much, if any, AC current is being applied to the battery. The regulator/rectifier is fed bumpy current, and outputs bumpy DC. It will have pulses of voltage and depressions in the V reading if viewed on an oscilloscope. I am sure you have one in the back closet, just like everyone else, right? I bought a 'kit' LED scope from aliexpress for ~$20 and put it together. It worked enough to monitor and display the output pulse that was produced to operate the distributor on a V6. And more.
If your machine kills batteries, I would definitely look at the Reg/rec output being fed to charge the battery. It is doubtful the stator could over-produce as the number and count of the windings is a fixed value that can only decrease with shorts and damage. It is more likely the Reg/rec is faulty or shorted internally and combining the other output from the stator... which is not so regulated nor rectified...
tom

[br4inl3ss]

thanks Tom.
i dont think its the regulator. this one is actually the 8th regulator/rectifier used.
all my noname cheapo 4 wire RR, the Naraku RR ( been ran on the vino for 2 month NO problem at all ), the used yamaha vino ( 100% the same ) RR, the brand new yamaha vino RR, and the actual one, Glixal 7 wire RR ( did the 11 pole conversion with matching wiring ahrness ). NO change at all since all of that. the battery was good up to mid last season becore the engine became harder to turn and starter go out. i still had some overcharging ( but to 15.1v not higher so thats fine ) but rarely ( twice maybe ? ).

also its not the charging that kills it. just trying to start the scooter ( it doesnt start because starter not fast enought or missing juice somewhere because starter drawing too much i guess ), from a fully charged battery, voltage will go from 15.6v to 10.5v-10v when starting. if i stop the voltage MAY ( not always ) go back to 12.2v or so. and will continue this routune untill the voltage goes under 10v where its not enought to make the starter turn. not even slowly it just wont like its jammed. ofcourse its not charging the battery... the engine doesnt run. ofcourse it will drain the battery starting it again and again without charging t. but from 15.6v to 9 in liek 3 FAST try ( FAST = 2-4 second ) ? at this point prety sure 3 18650 cell would do better.....

now that my 7a battery is charged , we'll try it in the vino. this machine start better than anything ive seen in my life even with such a small 4a battery.

[br4inl3ss]

ok so a little update.
i let the battery charge on a motorcycle charger/tender for about 12 ro 13h. it didnt fully charge according to the charger but i was done waiting without trying anything. anyway i had 12.5v. i call it gud.
so i plugged a Silverstar H4 on the battery for about 5 minutes. voltage dropped to 12.2. ok fine. i removed the h4 and the battery voltage increased right away. but not as it should.... voltage goes to 12.8v........ it will stays there untill i repeat the process again... voltage will drop when i plug the h4 to 12.2/12.3 then will go back up to crazy 12.8v with no load. but there is no charged that will over volt it. it wont go above 14.7 no matter what i do ( unless its on the scooter when it was completly dead then it would overcharge like crazy ).

i know about the floating voltage... but floating voltage is after a charge not after a load....................... i tested car batteries i had layign around, none have increasing voltage after i remove the load. they go back to where they was before the load.

[br4inl3ss]

ok so i completly removed the wire harness and inspected it. everything is fine.
thing is now it f*****g start ! i guess it was a bad contact that i misssed for about 3 years..........

but i noticed that the part draining my battery ( 12.6 to 12.4 in less than 24h ) is actually the 7 wire rectifier/regulator.
is this nomal ? thanks.

[GrumpyUnk]

There should be zero drain when things are turned off. Unless you have some instrument that uses battery power, such as a USB port or a clock. Either should not drain the battery.
If you disconnect the regulator/rectifier, get a battery reading, and check 24 hours later, does it show significant difference? Can you put a clamp-on ammeter around the wires from the rectifier(or actually the battery +) to measure current flow with all things at rest? That would show current being drained from the battery as the normal output wire from the regulator feeds directly to the battery and to the lights/meter/etc that use 12V. If you clamp around the battery wire, it will show current being used.
You may have a leaky diode(?) in the regulator/rectifier that allows current drain. I do not think it should.
tom

[br4inl3ss]

thanks again Tom.
i do not have clamp-on ammeter. only automotive and standard multimeter.
i did test unplugging the regulator before. there is absolutly NO drain at all with key off. i didnt test for many hours since the drain was 0.000 amps. thats why i asked if it was normal.


the internet is completly useless again. some say its nomal some say its not, and most results only talk about testing the damn battery. and the battery keep the charge pretty well when disconnected.