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Post by hellish100 on May 21, 2023 9:37:52 GMT -5
Hello!
After a major clean out, I have just one project, a basket-case ZX50. I am first going to build the motor before I do anything else.
What I need?
CVT, all of it
Misc hardware
Crank
Cylinder
Bearings/Seals
Exhaust
Intake Manifold
This will be the first time I assemble a motor from just the cases. Since I am going through the effort of installing a crank, this would be the time to build it better than stock.
What is everyone's thoughts on this combo:
Ministroker 43.4
72cc Malossi Cast cylinder
NCY exhaust ( looks like a v8 ? )
Polini CP 24 and intake
?
I think it is safe to say that I am converted from minarelli to vertical honda/dd50 scoots from now on. Pics to follow!
I appreciate any links or direction on this. Thanks!
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Post by oldgeek on May 21, 2023 17:42:06 GMT -5
Stock crank in the ZX 50 is bulletproof, so if it is in good condition dont bother with splitting cases. I would stay away from the stroker cranks in general, they can be quite the headache to get set up. Athena aluminum cylinder looks to be very nice but I have not used one yet. Taiwan bores are ok for the price, I have been running one for a long time. Polini CP 24 is nice but overkill, a dellorto 19 or 21 would be a plenty. Just in case you did not know the ZX gearbox is completely different from the Honda AF16 gearbox. Take care with the gearbox, replacement gears for the ZX are nearly impossible to source.
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Post by hellish100 on May 21, 2023 18:29:29 GMT -5
Thank you, OG! Unfortunately, I received it with the cases already split and I do not have a crank.  I'll see if I can find a stock crank. That'll make things a lot easier regarding fitment. |
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Post by repherence2 on May 27, 2023 0:16:46 GMT -5
What is everyone's thoughts on this combo: Ministroker 43.4 72cc Malossi Cast cylinder NCY exhaust ( looks like a v8 ? ) Polini CP 24 and intake ? I think it is safe to say that I am converted from minarelli to vertical honda/dd50 scoots from now on.
why ministroker...? local shops here on Oahu stock Ministoker cranks. there are 3 types of honda riders here. 1. Stock stroke, Genuine Honda Crank or Malossi Full Circle Crank. 2. Ministroker. 3. Full Stroker with Big diameter stroker Bore.
not too many tuners here recommend the use of the Ministroker. the main issue is crank longevity. even when i started my SYM dd50 engine build, i was persuaded away from running a ministroker crank by one shop's owner. bought an Arrow pipe and i went shopping around for a big bore kit for it. one shop recommended a ministroker crank paired with a Polini Corsa, but they did not have those parts in stock. so i went to Qwik Fix Garage and told the owner that i had and Arrow pipe and that i was looking to buy a crank and a big bore kit. he sold me a Malossi MHR replica bore kit and i told him i was interested in running it with a ministroker crank. he advised against running the ministroker crank. i went to 808 Cycle Center and the owner there prefers Full Strokers, 50+mm bore with 50+mm cranks. as in the Taida 52.5mm, 54mm, or 56mm stroker bore kits with Taida 49.6mm, 51.6mm, or 52.6mm stroker crank. 114cc, 120cc, 125cc, 130cc Full Stroker set ups.
i have seen posts on CL oahu for aluminum spacers. i think one guy was selling them in either 2 or 3 different thicknesses. these were spacers to set the bore to the correct height when running a ministroker crank. i even seen those spacers on the ScooterSwapShop site before. i take it that guys here on Oahu run Polini Corsas (maybe some Contessas too) with ministroker cranks, and that is why these bore spacers are available here so that people don't have to stack paper gaskets to achieve the proper timing durations.
from my calculations, ministroker crank on 47mm bore gets you 75.25cc. stock stroke crank on 47mm bore gets you 71.79cc. is it really worth it to gain 3+ cc's of displacement? but if longevity/reliability of the crank is a risk, is a ministroker really worth it?
the way i see it, if it is such that the 50-54mm bores that i linked do not require a stroker crank, using the stock 41.4mm stroke crank, the combination puts you in the same realm as the 90cc JOG engines. Kymco stroke + 54mm bore = 94.8cc. JOG90 stroke + 54mm bore = 94.3cc. virtually the same. at that point it becomes a battle between side cross flow intake path of DIO style engine versus the more direct path of the intake flow on the Minarelli as well as exhaust availability for the large displacement DIO.
if i had the money and i could do it all over again, i think i would run a 54mm (provided that it is designed for stock stroke) bore kit, Malossi Full Circle crank, and with a vertical minarelli pipe like Stage6 R1400 or a MXS Racing exhaust both available from scootertuning, and adjust the timing on the exhaust port to match the pipe. my SYM dd50 engine build so far stands at a 50mm Taida cast iron bore kit ported to Polini Corsa exhaust timing durations, unknown squish band head, Taiwan stock stroke crank, and vert Zuma Yasuni C16. the exhaust was recommended to me by 190mech .
in the end, it all depends on what kind of Animal you want. if you want a low revving hammah, you can run the large bore kit unported with that NCY (V8 sectional type) exhaust. it would have low end grunt and be on the quieter side running at 9,000 rpm. or you can Get Nuts and run the large bore kit, port it, and run a racing exhaust for a vertical Zuma engine. it would be a higher revving hammah rippin' at 11,000+ rpm. or you can go somewhere in between and run the Bull Pipe, Scorpion, JAD Power Pipe style pipes out of the Philippines and Taiwan.
a 72cc screamer is always a good option... ported Polini Corsa with a Wind Jammer pipe (or a Scooter Alley Scorpion -Hawaiian Style-) or a Malossi MHR with a Malossi MHR (zuma) exhaust.
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Post by oldgeek on May 27, 2023 6:30:29 GMT -5
.........the way i see it, if it is such that the 50-54mm bores that i linked do not require a stroker crank, using the stock 41.4mm stroke crank, the combination puts you in the same realm as the 90cc JOG engines......... Thanks for all the links. In my limited experience most cylinders above 48mm seem to require a longer than stock crank to set up properly. I have a couple Taidia 54mm AC and LC that require 52.6 stroke. Cylinders are typically designed to work with a certain stroke. A base spacer can get the piston deck height right when using a stock stroke cylinder such as the Polini Corsa and a mini stroker crank but where does that leave the piston at BDC? Usually below the transfers, which is not optimal. I have no idea how the builders overcome that problem or possibly they just run it as is. I am sure it works but how well? I know very little about 2 stroke theory and what you can get away with when building a 2T motor. |
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Post by repherence2 on May 27, 2023 16:29:17 GMT -5
A base spacer can get the piston deck height right when using a stock stroke cylinder such as the Polini Corsa and a mini stroker crank but where does that leave the piston at BDC? Usually below the transfers, which is not optimal. I have no idea how the builders overcome that problem or possibly they just run it as is. I am sure it works but how well?
i guess that if the piston sits below the transfer window at BDC, simple solution would be to port the window downward. i would feel more comfortable porting the bottom of a transfer window than porting the top/roof of the transfer. from my readings, it seems like transfer port roof angle is very important, that is why i would feel more comfortable to match the bottom of the transfer port to the piston top at BDC.
this is good point that you bring up and i do not recall reading about port matching the transfers windows to the piston top at BDC. maybe most people just Run'um Hard and run it with unmatched porting, thinking that "it's good enuff" but not realizing the true potential of the setup if ports are matched for best flow characteristics. or maybe there is something we don't know in that maybe if the piston is below the transfer windows at BDC, that slight void helps draw in the transfer charge and disperse it better. i have never built a ministroker, so i really do not know how the tuners get it work. i guess it is not really about the 3+ cc's that you gain by running a ministroker crank, it is probably more about the performance characteristics. arnadanoob stated that they can spin up to 10-11K rpm. maybe it spins up quicker than stock stroke?
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Post by oldgeek on May 27, 2023 22:34:08 GMT -5
i guess that if the piston sits below the transfer window at BDC, simple solution would be to port the window downward. i would feel more comfortable porting the bottom of a transfer window than porting the top/roof of the transfer. from my readings, it seems like transfer port roof angle is very important, that is why i would feel more comfortable to match the bottom of the transfer port to the piston top at BDC.
this is good point that you bring up and i do not recall reading about port matching the transfers windows to the piston top at BDC. maybe most people just Run'um Hard and run it with unmatched porting, thinking that "it's good enuff" but not realizing the true potential of the setup if ports are matched for best flow characteristics. or maybe there is something we don't know in that maybe if the piston is below the transfer windows at BDC, that slight void helps draw in the transfer charge and disperse it better. i have never built a ministroker, so i really do not know how the tuners get it work. i guess it is not really about the 3+ cc's that you gain by running a ministroker crank, it is probably more about the performance characteristics. arnadanoob stated that they can spin up to 10-11K rpm. maybe it spins up quicker than stock stroke?
I hope repherence2 and I have not hijacked your thread too bad with our discussion hellish100Most transfers ports already have 130 of duration which is the maximum our forum guru recommends in general. Opening transfers would create lots of duration. Also at BDC if the piston is matched perfectly to the bottom of the transfers the incoming fuel and oil charge cools the piston down.  Just to add some more info here, the Athena single ring aluminum 47.5mm cylinder kit I ordered from Treatland just arrived. I got it for $160 after the current discount they are offering, its an incredible deal IMO. So I took it over to the shop to see how it setup up on a 41.4mm stock stroke crank, low and behold it did not set up very well. It actually looks like it would set up perfectly on a 44mm stroke crank. I just happen to have one marked 44mm although I do not know whether it is actually a 44mm or a 43.4 stroke like most of the ones marked 44mm are. Anyway it sets up perfectly on the 44mm stroke crank, I mean really well! So it appears to me this cylinder was designed for a mini stroker build. That comes out to 77-78cc depending on the actual stroke of the crank. I have no plans for the cylinder ATM but who knows what the future holds. |
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Post by repherence2 on May 27, 2023 23:16:28 GMT -5
I hope repherence2 and I have not hijacked your thread too bad with our discussion hellish100 ...Anyway it sets up perfectly on the 44mm stroke crank, I mean really well! So it appears to me this cylinder was designed for a mini stroker build. That comes out to 77-78cc depending on the actual stroke of the crank. I have no plans for the cylinder ATM but who knows what the future holds.
i think this is Informative and Constructive Hijacking. lots of info presented in this discussion. at least hellish100 will have lots of possible directions to go in his DIO/Elite/dd50 engine quest. |
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Post by hellish100 on May 28, 2023 15:11:27 GMT -5
Absolutely fine with me! Lots of good info here.
The biggest reason I thought of going with the mini-stroker was due to is being for sale on the SSS site. Plus thinking that it would give me the low end torque I was wanting. I think Oldgeek's adventures of trying to find a crank that fits without spline, bushing, or seal issues has guided me to finding a stock crank.
Very interesting info surrounding the stroke vs port timing.
I think I'll aim for the 9,000 low-end power configuration as I've noticed that I am not as likely to go for longer rides with louder and more radical setups.
Have y'all ever tried using a Polini CP? I want to try something fresh from the Delorto's and hear that the CPs are easier to get baselined.
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Post by bigmatthew86 on May 28, 2023 15:54:35 GMT -5
On a lower end sport build I don’t really think you gain much on going up from a stock carb. I’ve had 2 Zuma sport builds, 1 stock carb & the other a Dellorto 17.5. Honestly couldn’t tell much difference between the 2. A 21 or 24 seems like overkill for a sport 70. My 2nd build seemed to gain a little when I changed from a top performance to s6 street race & a Yasuni r but even then I never felt the carb was a bottleneck. The 1st Zuma with a top performance & a Leo Zx would bury the speedo easy & did several thousand miles with an upjetted stock carb. It ran around 8600rpm with the 2nd one running about 9600.
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Post by repherence2 on Jun 3, 2023 13:05:08 GMT -5
I think I'll aim for the 9,000 low-end power configuration as I've noticed that I am not as likely to go for longer rides with louder and more radical setups. Have y'all ever tried using a Polini CP? I want to try something fresh from the Delorto's and hear that the CPs are easier to get baselined.
rajah that! "low-end power configuration" is good. there are various ways to play with this realm. i work with i guy that has an Arnada that has a Polini Corsa ported to work with a Wind Jammer chamber pipe. however, currently he is running it with a YMS V8 pipe and he says that the bike wants to come up on wheelies very easy. he is running the V8 since it is quieter than the Wind Jammer. but, if he wants to go and do some high speed rips, he installs the Wind Jammer pipe. i have also heard of people doing swapping between the PG Long and the V8 or swapping Scooter Alley Scorpion and the V8. PG Long's and Scorpions are more for WOT rippin'.
Polini CP...
in my quest to make my Chinarelli fast, i used to go to a minarelli tuning shop to buy parts. after the typical upgrades for bore, pipe, brakes, variator, and torque driver, i asked the owner of the shop what else i could get. he sold me Polini CP 24. it came with an adapter that allowed it to mate up with the stock airbox boot on my Chinarelli. my Chinarelli had the rear facing intake manifold. i have run my CP 24 with a 47mm Malossi Sport, 47mm Motoforce mid-race, 50mm stock 83cc (jog90), and i ran it on a 54mm HOCA (jog90). i ran it with airbox and i also ran it with UNI Pod filter.
overall, CP is a good carb. i never had a Dellorto so i cannot make a comparison. all around, the CP is good in performance. it seems to be a lot more fuel efficient that the 28mm OKO PWK. low and mid range is nice.
there came a day when i wanted to try to see what the 28mm OKO PWK craze was all about in the Oahu moped realm. pretty much all the modified Hondas and SYMs run the OKO carbs. then i finally understood why. the 28mm OKO PWK was so much better at WOT rips. it definitely out shined the CP 24. but the trade off is the low-mid throttle performance of the 28 OKO. the low end sucks. the CP 24 was awesome around town but i was getting punked out buy a lot of modded hondas. when i switched out to the 28 OKO, i could run against a lot more people because it ends up being 2 guys on mopeds, rippin' WOT and holding on long runs to see who has the faster bike. when it comes to the WOT street races, the 28 OKO was dominant.
-- i found that low-mid poor performance on the 28 OKO is easily remedied with a venturi divider.
it all depends how you want to set up the bike. decide whether you want smooth and soft roll out from a dead stop or if you want to be able to rev it up so that when the clutch kicks, the bike takes off hard and lightens the front end.
the Elite that i borrowed from my friend 15 years ago, he said it was a 90cc set up. i think he was running a 52mm or 51mm Ruima bore kit (probably ported), a 28mm OKO unfiltered, and stock exhaust (i think it was drilled and modified). guarantee that it was running high rpm clutch springs. you had to rev that thing up pretty high before you could feel the clutch engaging. so if you came up on throttle very slowly, you could get it to roll out softly. but it felt weird to be at a dead stop and then to have to come up on throttle slowly (must have been around 7000-8000 rpm) to roll out. but, it had the capability that if you came up on throttle fast, that thing would kick and take off. if you were not ready for it, you would end up pull too much throttle, pulling the front wheel off the ground, and most likely crashing and eating shit.
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Post by hellish100 on Jun 3, 2023 20:26:50 GMT -5
Thank you for the info!
Would a PG Long, Corsa, stock crank, and min 24mm carb be a good setup?
EDIT: From your previous message, it sounds like a PG Long may be good for WOT runs. For me, sticking with Austin traffic would have to be WOT.
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Post by repherence2 on Jun 4, 2023 14:24:26 GMT -5
Thank you for the info! Would a PG Long, Corsa, stock crank, and min 24mm carb be a good setup? EDIT: From your previous message, it sounds like a PG Long may be good for WOT runs. For me, sticking with Austin traffic would have to be WOT.
that sounds like a good setup. are PG Long's availble for you?
...or you can always do what i did and put a Yasuni C16 (for vertical Zuma) on it. for the price of the C16 at scootertuning, compared to other pipes out there for the "DIO" like the Phongeer PG Long, Arrow, or the Scorpion, the C16 seems to be the best value for a WOT runner. at least no need worry about the baffle rattling loose on the PG Long. but if you handy with the grinder and the welder, you can always do the "flip-cone" modification on the PG Long. scooterswapshop did a dyno test video on the Dio exhausts, and they tested a flip-cone PG long from hawaii.
explore your options before you dive in. many ways to skin the cat when it comes to the Honda vertical engine. many different combinations. but i just seen an advertisement for the PG Long at treatland for $224. you can get a zuma c16 for $270. big difference in quality and value.
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kosmos
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 108
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Post by kosmos on Jun 5, 2023 13:06:41 GMT -5
Thank you for the info! Would a PG Long, Corsa, stock crank, and min 24mm carb be a good setup? EDIT: From your previous message, it sounds like a PG Long may be good for WOT runs. For me, sticking with Austin traffic would have to be WOT.
that sounds like a good setup. are PG Long's availble for you?
...or you can always do what i did and put a Yasuni C16 (for vertical Zuma) on it. for the price of the C16 at scootertuning, compared to other pipes out there for the "DIO" like the Phongeer PG Long, Arrow, or the Scorpion, the C16 seems to be the best value for a WOT runner. at least no need worry about the baffle rattling loose on the PG Long. but if you handy with the grinder and the welder, you can always do the "flip-cone" modification on the PG Long. scooterswapshop did a dyno test video on the Dio exhausts, and they tested a flip-cone PG long from hawaii.
explore your options before you dive in. many ways to skin the cat when it comes to the Honda vertical engine. many different combinations. but i just seen an advertisement for the PG Long at treatland for $224. you can get a zuma c16 for $270. big difference in quality and value.
I've heard about this cone flip before but, how is it done exactly? The video of the flipped cone PG Long and the pictures from that website shows 2 different looking things. The ones from that forum shows one with a cone on the end of the pipe welded on about halfway with the outside part cut off sitting to the side. The video shows what looks like a regular one you can't tell they welded on. Like how is the flip cone exactly done? I've got a PG Long that I bought with a corsa before thats rattling too. |
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Post by hellish100 on Jun 5, 2023 19:16:50 GMT -5
Order for OEM crank, bearings, and seals placed with racingplanet. I bet it'll take a month + for it to get here. Lots of time to continue hoarding parts for the engine build, maybe a corsa?!
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