Ssp-g qmb camshaft angles?

[GrumpyUnk]

Given the normality of copying others' work and using it without attribution(See: POTUS), in China, by Chinese manufacturers, I would not provide cam grind information to just anyone. I would not put the information out in public areas where it could be used by those who don't want to spend a dime of their own, or, more likely, don't have anyone to DO testing and development of a cam grind, to make copy cat product and sell it as their own work.
IOW, if the information is published, it will be used by someone who has no intention of paying or even giving credit for its development.
If a firm in China developed a product, by the time it hit the market, or was viewable on aliexpress or the other ones, copies would also flood the market, and the original developer would lose any sort of advantage for doing all the work.
A recent mouse trap was developed in USA. It was being sold on the two biggies. Within a short time, there were copies coming from China. The copies gave no credit to the original, even copied some of the YT videos in their ads, and the original seller was stolen from blatantly.
I do not know the process, but Amazon should have a 'cease and desist' clause for items that are stolen from a valid copyright or patent holder. All stock should be seized and destroyed. Aliexpress has a reporting process for same, but I have no idea if they enforce it or not.
Sooo... if you want the specs, buy one, measure and enjoy. Please do not publish what you determine, even here, as my bet(justanotherguy) is that China has watchers/members who follow sites like this looking for product lines they can copy and sell. If they gave attribution to the designer/developer, and paid a licensing fee... that would be different, but for the most part they do not.
All the specs, once out on a board on the net, are out for anyone to take and use. I don't think I would be publishing specs for something I had taken time to develop and was hoping to make a few dollars on selling.
YM-WILL-V
tom

[fugaziiv]

@grumpyunk Basically all of that. While reviewing the requested information I decided against releasing additional specifications.


Matt

[dragzooks]

What’s the big deal, really? It’s a camshaft, anyone with a degree wheel (free, if being cheap, print it out on a computer and glue to anything of the same diameter, be it metal or wood for that matter. A mag base and dial indicator $20 at harbor freight. A flat piece of 3/16 steel plate. Various bolts and spacers (washer stacked up) and a coat hanger for a pointer. A old spark plug, bust the porcelain out and tap the id for again another cheap bolt. You can have everything for less than 50 dollars to map out any cam. Install it, find true tdc, zero out your lash, start writing down degrees and lift numbers.

You can “back out” the rocker ratio based on total lift when installed in the engine with zero lash versus camshaft measured lift (overall love height minus base circle=camshaft lift

Simple math you should have learned in grade school can get anyone all the info.

For that matter, someone like me with a mill and lathe can easily construct a basic fixture out of two import (cheap) v blocks, a dial indicator, and few other rudimentary relatively common items. From there you easily measure any cam. Now neither method is gonna get you ramp data and design details like acceleration, jerk, etc—the critical details an engineer uses to design a cam profile from scratch. But I think the guy probably just wanted the basics that every cam manufacturer normally supplies in what we call a cam card when you buy a new camshaft in the US. You know, gross lift, duration, duration @1mm or .050”, lobe centerlines, all that stuff that’s just a degree wheel away.

So again, what’s the big deal? If you actually designed this cam then you know those basic numbers don’t reallly mean anything. Two cams can have basically the same lift and duration (overall numbers that is normally andvertised by manufacturers) and be entirely different. The specs don’t tell the whole story. One cam might open the valve real quick and have its “duration” in a different spot. I don’t think he meant anything insidious when he ask for grind angles. He probably was referring to center lines or separation. You should know that without sophisticated equipment you can’t just copy a cam off overall lift and duration specs or lobe centers. It’s not that easy. You got to put that cam in a cam doctor and/or chuck it in a cam grinder and flip the tooling and “cut” a master (tooling) plate. I don’t think it’s that deep!

[GrumpyUnk]

dragzooks.... I suspect that those who would want to copy the cam would want to SELL copies.

The question I have is: Why make it easy for someone/anyone to copy a cam without even buying one, without taking ANY measurements, any degree wheel information, etc. Make it easy, and that encourages theft of someone's hard work.
I expect there are 'bootleg' A9 cams, and maybe A8 A7 A6... I saw comment on the other versions besides '9', but did not investigate.
If the cams were priced as if there was a lot of precious metals used in production, that would be one thing, but they are not.
I do not know return policy, and don't care. Making the information available at zero cost to the people who are KNOWN for copying others' work and giving NOTHING in return, not even an acknowledgment, would hoover up the information and sell it or use it in production. Excuse me, but scruem. Let them do at least something, instead of offering on a platter more or less.
I remember the days of Atari/Apple/Commodore when copying software was a big thing in the SF Bay Area. I refused to copy and bought my disk just like anyone else. The Atari market was noted for being very active as far as copying, and it hurt them in the long run. Why take the time to develop software(cams...) when anyone in the market will just copy it and pocket the profits, or for the price of a disk make a free copy? Why do it? Well they learned/didn't as software was always slower and not as featured in the Atari market. 8-bit anyway.
Using my talent/knowledge I did break one protected package, which I reluctantly will divulge, Frogger, and gave the 'open' disk back to the guy who lent it to me. I never played the game in question, and I regret breaking it open. Hopefully any and all who would be concerned are no longer interested...
tom

[dragzooks]

I get the whole copying thing, I’ve been in the performance motorcycle industry myself since the mid 90s as a shop owner, engine builder, racer, and now work for another guy as I got sick of the business side of it, mostly dealing with some customers. I’ve experienced the copying of parts, intellectual property, etc many times. But what I don’t get is the secrecy of BASIC cam specs. Keyword basic! Cam specs are the “advertised specs” given out freely for cams so one can determine which cam to buy. As an engine builder I’m not just gonna buy a cam that someone claims works well, makes good power, etc etc. I need to know details of the cam to determine if it’s compatible with a particular build. As I’m sure you’re aware cams aren’t a one size fits all. Quite the opposite. Every manufacturer I know of here in the states gives out the basic specs for this exact reason. These advertised specs are what I’m referring to as basic specs. Gross lift duration lobe centerlines, etc…the specs that anyone with a degree wheel/dial indicator/set of calipers can measure/derive. With that said, there are proprietary specs to every cam that are beyond measurement with simple tools as I just described. You needs advanced metrology equipment just to measure them and furthermore an advanced understanding to do anything with them once you have them. Those I agree should be kept private to the owner of the grind. The basic advertised specs such as lift and duration don’t define a cam. You absolutely cannot go to a someone with a cam grinder, be it manual or cnc and give them lift, duration, centerlines, and the other “basic specs” and get a duplicate cam ground. It doesn’t work like that. Cam profiles are not linear. They are NOT defined in that matter. They are however advertised in that matter for comparison sake. That was the point I was trying to make by my response earlier. That info is all but worthless. It’s just numbers basically. As a matter of fact if you were to speak with a camshaft designer they’ll tell you that final lift/duration is actually an afterthought to some extent. You may have a number in mind your shooting for, but the math and an engines physical geometries determines what’s possible snd what’s not with regard to a cam profile. Again, I as I said in the earlier reply you can have two (or 10) cams with identical overall specs (advertised specs) and they be completly different and perform different. Think about the shape of a lobe and think pointy versus a broad nose. They might have the same lift and duration overall but the ramping opens the valve totally different, putting its meat at a different point (crank angle) etc etc. you can have a symmetric lobe or a assymetric lobe. There are many different possibilities and giving out the comparison specs doesn’t give ANYONE enough data to copy your cam. If he was the cam designer he’d know that. And I don’t have anything against the man, I don’t know him. I actually want to try some of his parts. But I disagree with his logic for withholding this basic info cause I too looked around and didn’t see anyone giving out specs. I’m betting the guy that started the thread was just wanting this same basic info that is commonly given out in every other performance segment besides scooters I guess.

[Misfit J]

I'll jump in on this. I myself have a Ssp-g cam in my qmb build and it's worth it. I can understand why Ssp-g doesn't give out more then just the lobe specs. If you have a good product, competitor's will want to knock off yours, after you've done all the hard work in making it work.

I trust partsforscooters / Ssp-g. It's good solid stuff