yamaha vino question

[br4inl3ss]

hi.
so my brother have the 2009 yamaha vino 50cc carburated version
i gotta repeat since on reddit they keep repeating its impossible all 4t yamaha are fuel injected...
CARBURETED VERSION

it is a DAMN CARBURETOR not a throttle body. its not a c3 / zuma its a Vino...
right ? ok.

allright. its becomming hard to to get parts from yamaha ( other also ), and some parts of the carburetor are discontinued.
time to upgrade the carb to a phbg as most people do on thier 4t zuma. he is going to get the 60cc Naraku bbk in a near future so yeah... why not since he have multiple reason for.

so in stock form, the C A R B U R E T O R have a tps ( throttle position sensor ) i dont see what is its purpose... its a carb not TBI or TB... timing maybe ?
but what about the cdi ? damn advanced electronics.... maybe thats why i see alot of gy6 swapped C3 / Zuma here ? ( mostly 50, but some 150cc )
will it still work without that PoS of TPS ?

[GrumpyUnk]

Find a wiring schematic... see where the wires connect to determine their possible purpose. Ask at a retail store that sells Yamaha bikes. Wander into their service department and see if one of the techs can give you a hint or two.
It sort of does not make sense to diddle the spark timing based on the throttle position. The spark would have no way of knowing the rpms... so advance the spark at 1k rpm... before the engine has time to get going? I don't think that makes a lot of sense. OTOH, it does not have to make sense to me.
Cars and trucks at least use centrifugal advance mechanisms to change spark timing, but they respond to rpms, not throttle position. A vacuum advance varies based on engine intake manifold vacuum, and advance the timing when vacuum increases. Again, not throttle position, though vacuum varies based on how wide open the throttle plate is. Generally, WOT would be the time vacuum falls, and the spark timing is de-advanced(avoiding words some find offensive...) from any vacuum caused advance.
You really have to know of the machine has a smart box fiddling with the timing to be able to determine if you can replace and ignore the TPS.
tom

[br4inl3ss]

thanks.
nothing to be found on yamaha ( ofcourse. its like they NEVER did any 4 stroke engine. only 2 broke engine ).
i do have factory service manual, but they're useless. even yamaha doesnt get what the fuck is wrong.
half the diagram are for fuel injection model, the other half is carbureted.
that means in the apparently CORRECT manual, from ymaha stealership directly ( and we went through 4 to find the one that match the most ), thet talk about the carburetor, but not about the weirdo CDI ( big model with more than 8 pins ) that generally include ignition and fuel injection controller. but its carbureted !!! WTF is up...
according to this same manual, it have GREASE fork.. NOPE. its OIL fork.
if we change service manual with the one with matching fork ( oil in manual, oil on the scooter ), then its for the fuel injected model.

yamaha Canada called Yamaha USA that contacted Yamaha Japan... and the call bounced back the same route to the stealership, they have absolutly no idea what the fuck is up with that but confirmed my model with serial number match half a factory manual and the other half for the other manual. personally, when i saw that, i was done with yamaha weirdness. only one stealership ( far away from me ) dealt with such an issue. and with the same vehicle, 2009 yamaha vino.

manual are of no use at all. 3 nearbe yamaha stealership want to kill theirself when they have to repair one because of that. earlier models are correct. impossible tog et the info from yamaha mechanic they would have to spend DAYS on it to find out the good stuff and also have the scooter in hands. thanks but no thanks. to a point that my brother tought about swapping it with a 139qmb ( to not do crazy ugly stretch ). if only we could find one for sale...
damn modern 4 stroke...

anyway... because of that, the only info i could find was about aprilia RS 125. people seems to do TPS delete . apparently, its how i tought the vino would work : adjust timing based on throttle position. weird i know. they can unplug it, they lose a bit of performance ( barely noticeable ). but hey, aprilia is italian and italian like to do weird nosense stuff.

[fugaziiv]

The TPS on the 09 Vino classic carb is wired to the ignition system and is required for proper running. These bikes are not an option for upgrades as this system really can't be overridden/removed. You'll have to use the stock carb. It's a rare bike, pretty sure this is the only Yamaha 3V 4t that was carb'd and only for a year or two. Rebuild the stock carb and run it as is, here's a video on the rebuild.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwK11nJdA9s


Matt

[br4inl3ss]

thanks. i know how to rebuild a carb.... but i dont have a machine shop to re-create the unavailable parts....
thats the problem. they're either out of stock at yamaha ( so 99.9% of legit yamaha sellers online and in store ) or discontinued.

he's waiting on the float valve since 2 month they keep delaying it. its for 17 febuary 2024 right now ( bought on partzilla, asked all other yamaha seller, same ETA sicne ti direclty from yamaha ). also called about 6 yamaha stealership, even canada wide instead of just quebec, same ETA. the last one called a dealer in the us, same exact ETA.

so yeah... if he knew before, he'd never have bought that thing. he would of bought a scootterre nostalgia instead. but its too late.

but one thing i dont understand... if its to controle the timing, how can it acheive it based only on tps......
i know some KTM use only tps for timing... but ONLY to advance it so it perform better. its a known mod within KTM.

in the car world, NO WAY to control ignition based only on tps. IMPOSSIBLE. at all.

[GrumpyUnk]

N on-EFI engines used vacuum diaphragm and flyweghts to advance timing based on load(manifold vacuum) and rpms.
The TPS value is used by an ECM or EFI controller to indicate expected fuel needed and to adjust timing, in conjunction with the MAP and MAF sensors as designed. A high vacuum reported by MAP indicates low load, so less fuel/timing advance at a given rpm/tps position. A low vacuum OTOH indicates HIGH load, as in WOT, and the TPS would also indicate Wide Open Throttle, and feed extra fuel and diddle with the timing to keep fromg getting pre-ignition pinging or knocking.
So, not ONLY based on TPS but TPS does add to the selected timing and fuel squirt time(how much fuel).
Incoming air temperature and Coolant temperature are also mixed in to bias the mix either rich or lean depending.
I am just giving basic mesh of how they all combine to give a spark TIMING signal and a FUEL squirt time to modulate fuel flow.
A carb for the most part does not have gizmos to fiddle with the fuel flow so readily, so they were more or less abandoned as far as controlling emissions. Equipped with at TPS, they can indicate to the ECM how much advance to apply to spark timing. I think I would go with fixed timing as 99% of all cycle engines did in the past and a good % still do.
Feed the 'smart box' a TPS signal from about the middle of its travel. Measuer with a VOM and substitute a fixed resistor to match the middle, and go from there. If you want more advanced, diddle the resistance in one direction or the other until it does what you want. Ignore the rest, and put on a carb that works.
Just my $14,466,532,409. worth. Two cents? Bah! INflation.
tom

[br4inl3ss]

Just my $14,466,532,409. worth. Two cents? Bah! INflation.

they jsut said here in canada inflation dropped from 4.something% to 3.6%... i would like to know from what planet this info comes from... cheese brick was 4.50 before covid, after covis 8.99... thats even more than the previous 4.something%...
ROYALE cook ham bag used to by 5$ flat. after covid its 8.99. still far from the famous 4.something%.
a RUNNING and registerable 2006 yamaha bw's used to sells for 2000$ in a brand new condition... now they sells for 3800$, need inspection, need fairing, need rebuild because they've been modifier 70cc by overloaded shop doing terrible work because of time. yeah right its 4.something%... if there wasnt anymore BRAINED people selling stuff what its worth, the world would of been already done. ive seen a 2008 bws sold for 1800 in very good condition. the seller explained the price as " its worth 1800 not 3800 fuck them scammers ". thank you god for not making EVERY human completly braindead.

thanks Tom.
i know how they work. been installing and tuning MegaSquirt ECU in many many car ( worked for a speed shop for years, but i stopepd i seen the truth about how they all scam, and while msot humans dont care, i do care so i cant handle it ).
thats why i said its impossible to rely only on tps to adjust timing. AT LEAST a vacuum for engine load + tps. ( thats to adjust timing, it needs a CPS for correct timing, and most of the time also a CMS so it know exactly when to spark, else you'd end with a nice hole in pistons. depends if its wasted spark or sequential ). my ehavily modded 1999 dodge dakota swapped v8 360 magnum with a megasquirt 2 used batch fuel with wasted spark. this ancient system work so good ( sequential injectino is pretty much useless at over 6k rpm, because fuel doesnt ahve time to follow in the valve so it end up bein batch fuel anyway. only idle and low rpm can take use of sequential fuel. and the gain is very minimal. maybe F1 see a difference, and i'm not even sure yet ).

fixed timing is what i'd do too. i just didnt know it would work with a resistor. or even a potentiometer for adjsutability but it would increase the amount of wire, and there is already too much ( for relaibility reasons ofcourse ). we dont need another unreliable PoS we already have mine identifying as a harley.

[GrumpyUnk]

Yabbut. The wire does not have to go anywhere. Meter the TPS and see if it changes ohms over its range. The 'sweep' to ground should follow a curve of resistance.
Pick a resistance level you like, get a proper value resistor, and disconnect the TPS and substitute the resistor. Done. You can do wherever the TPS has a disconnect terminal. I dunno the # of wires, but two should be value & ground. You could hide the resistor inside the disconnect where you measure the TPS resistance.
Viola. Fixed timing.
tom