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Post by billwill on Jan 14, 2024 6:19:48 GMT -5
The other day, I tried various combinations of torque springs, rollers and shims and the pipe is just too much for this cylinder.
It performed best with super light rollers, liking 3.5g the most. Anything above that and it just didn't have the take off it should. If you talk to some of the more successful tuners and even the builder of the ST pipe, they all recommend staying around 5g for most setups.
I'm going to keep it on hand and maybe in the future upgrade, but for now ordered a C16.
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Post by fabster on Jan 14, 2024 11:34:10 GMT -5
I went a few pages back but couldnt find the info.
Do you still run the stock ignition ? If so, there's your answer for the slow take-off.
Also, which cylinder do you have right now ?
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Post by billwill on Jan 15, 2024 6:20:28 GMT -5
I went a few pages back but couldnt find the info. Do you still run the stock ignition ? If so, there's your answer for the slow take-off. Also, which cylinder do you have right now ? Yeah still running stock ignition. And, running the Stage6 Sport Pro MK2 cylinder. What's interesting is running an aftermarket ignition seems to be much less popular in the vertical minarelli world, and since embarking on this saga, have had several conversations with guys who had even radical, high revving setups that didn't run one either. I really think its the pipe, but after swapping for the C16, should know for sure. I didn't have this problem with the Polini for race 4. Side note on ignitions, have encountered a few people who really dislike MVT direct digital on these - and that is the one that seems to be most popular in the states, at least with horizontals. Is there a specific one you'd recommend looking into? I was talking to the builder of the ST pipe and he was saying they prefer Selettra or PVL on vertical motors. I picked one of these up from Scootertuning on recommendation from someone in one of the facebook groups who had a similar build and swore by it: www.scootertuning.ca/en/crankshafts-needle-bearings/36036-offset-woodruff-key-to-advance-ignition-top-performances-1000000002683.htmlWas planning on keeping it on hand until I get things running the way I like.
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Post by fabster on Jan 16, 2024 21:22:01 GMT -5
Yeah still running stock ignition. And, running the Stage6 Sport Pro MK2 cylinder. What's interesting is running an aftermarket ignition seems to be much less popular in the vertical minarelli world, and since embarking on this saga, have had several conversations with guys who had even radical, high revving setups that didn't run one either. I really think its the pipe, but after swapping for the C16, should know for sure. I didn't have this problem with the Polini for race 4. Side note on ignitions, have encountered a few people who really dislike MVT direct digital on these - and that is the one that seems to be most popular in the states, at least with horizontals. Is there a specific one you'd recommend looking into? I was talking to the builder of the ST pipe and he was saying they prefer Selettra or PVL on vertical motors. I picked one of these up from Scootertuning on recommendation from someone in one of the facebook groups who had a similar build and swore by it: www.scootertuning.ca/en/crankshafts-needle-bearings/36036-offset-woodruff-key-to-advance-ignition-top-performances-1000000002683.htmlWas planning on keeping it on hand until I get things running the way I like. The main advantage of racing ignition is the variable ignition curve. And to a lesser extent the rotor weight. The stock ignition has a fixed advance curve. Not a big deal for an 7-8k rpm (read : low revving) engine. But not ideal when peak HP is at, let's say 12k rpm on a 70cc, and you still need to go through 6-7-8-9-10k before that, with the low torque of such a small engine. Ok, now let's say you install that woodruff (on the right side too! You want to advance timing. The stock ignition external rotor needs to be clocked clockwise, so the pickup gets its signal sooner). Great, you now have a much better and optimal ignition advance at low rpm. It will change the scoot feeling drastically. But the advance is still fixed, which means at higher RPM, the mixture will ignite sooner. oh oh. Everything's fine until you ride long enough at high RPM. Heat is building, and you will probably end up with a hole right in the center of the piston So yes it's good, but it becomes a timebomb (well, more than a modded scoot already is !) And this is why a high end setup can run "good" on stock ignition (with not ideal acceleration). The spark advance is still great at high rpm, where the power is People running high end configs would be gladly surprised if they would try an ignition. You are right they are less frequent on vertical than Horizontal or Piaggio. The MVT is a great ignition, and probably the one to get if you need 12v. But for reference, 0.005" BTDC seemed to work the best on multiple configurations. Their instructions call for more, which is not needed. Selletra and PVL. Well, this is GM vs Ford vs Dodge kind of comparison. Myself I like Ford and PVL , probably because they were my first buy, liked them and continued with them hahaha Both are equally good. I did not try the new Selletra, but it would have been equally good. At the end of the day, technically it's just firing at a certain degree on a given rpm, and all variable curves developped for our little engines can't differ thaaat much. (they do a bit, but for the last details on a dyno) Didn't expect to write that much haha
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Post by Lucass2T on Jan 17, 2024 1:31:08 GMT -5
I went a few pages back but couldnt find the info. Do you still run the stock ignition ? If so, there's your answer for the slow take-off. Also, which cylinder do you have right now ? Yeah still running stock ignition. And, running the Stage6 Sport Pro MK2 cylinder. What's interesting is running an aftermarket ignition seems to be much less popular in the vertical minarelli world, and since embarking on this saga, have had several conversations with guys who had even radical, high revving setups that didn't run one either. I really think its the pipe, but after swapping for the C16, should know for sure. I didn't have this problem with the Polini for race 4. Side note on ignitions, have encountered a few people who really dislike MVT direct digital on these - and that is the one that seems to be most popular in the states, at least with horizontals. Is there a specific one you'd recommend looking into? I was talking to the builder of the ST pipe and he was saying they prefer Selettra or PVL on vertical motors. I picked one of these up from Scootertuning on recommendation from someone in one of the facebook groups who had a similar build and swore by it: www.scootertuning.ca/en/crankshafts-needle-bearings/36036-offset-woodruff-key-to-advance-ignition-top-performances-1000000002683.htmlWas planning on keeping it on hand until I get things running the way I like. HPI race or HPI 2-ten. You could also consider the red Top Performances cdi with a timing curve. It replaces your oem cdi with one that has a true curve built into it.
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Post by billwill on Jan 17, 2024 7:09:07 GMT -5
Yeah still running stock ignition. And, running the Stage6 Sport Pro MK2 cylinder. What's interesting is running an aftermarket ignition seems to be much less popular in the vertical minarelli world, and since embarking on this saga, have had several conversations with guys who had even radical, high revving setups that didn't run one either. I really think its the pipe, but after swapping for the C16, should know for sure. I didn't have this problem with the Polini for race 4. Side note on ignitions, have encountered a few people who really dislike MVT direct digital on these - and that is the one that seems to be most popular in the states, at least with horizontals. Is there a specific one you'd recommend looking into? I was talking to the builder of the ST pipe and he was saying they prefer Selettra or PVL on vertical motors. I picked one of these up from Scootertuning on recommendation from someone in one of the facebook groups who had a similar build and swore by it: www.scootertuning.ca/en/crankshafts-needle-bearings/36036-offset-woodruff-key-to-advance-ignition-top-performances-1000000002683.htmlWas planning on keeping it on hand until I get things running the way I like. HPI race or HPI 2-ten. You could also consider the red Top Performances cdi with a timing curve. It replaces your oem cdi with one that has a true curve built into it. Not having the do the whole ignition and just trying a CDI is appealing. For the cheap cost compared to a full ignition, I just picked up one of these: www.scooter-center.com/en/cdi-top-performances-variable-ignition-timing-minarelli-50cc-euro-0-1-yamaha-ignition-tp990923Let's see how long it takes to get here LOL. Yeah still running stock ignition. And, running the Stage6 Sport Pro MK2 cylinder. What's interesting is running an aftermarket ignition seems to be much less popular in the vertical minarelli world, and since embarking on this saga, have had several conversations with guys who had even radical, high revving setups that didn't run one either. I really think its the pipe, but after swapping for the C16, should know for sure. I didn't have this problem with the Polini for race 4. Side note on ignitions, have encountered a few people who really dislike MVT direct digital on these - and that is the one that seems to be most popular in the states, at least with horizontals. Is there a specific one you'd recommend looking into? I was talking to the builder of the ST pipe and he was saying they prefer Selettra or PVL on vertical motors. I picked one of these up from Scootertuning on recommendation from someone in one of the facebook groups who had a similar build and swore by it: www.scootertuning.ca/en/crankshafts-needle-bearings/36036-offset-woodruff-key-to-advance-ignition-top-performances-1000000002683.htmlWas planning on keeping it on hand until I get things running the way I like. The main advantage of racing ignition is the variable ignition curve. And to a lesser extent the rotor weight. The stock ignition has a fixed advance curve. Not a big deal for an 7-8k rpm (read : low revving) engine. But not ideal when peak HP is at, let's say 12k rpm on a 70cc, and you still need to go through 6-7-8-9-10k before that, with the low torque of such a small engine. Ok, now let's say you install that woodruff (on the right side too! You want to advance timing. The stock ignition external rotor needs to be clocked counter-clockwise, so the pickup gets its signal sooner). Great, you now have a much better and optimal ignition advance at low rpm. It will change the scoot feeling drastically. But the advance is still fixed, which means at higher RPM, the mixture will ignite sooner. oh oh. Everything's fine until you ride long enough at high RPM. Heat is building, and you will probably end up with a hole right in the center of the piston So yes it's good, but it becomes a timebomb (well, more than a modded scoot already is !) And this is why a high end setup can run "good" on stock ignition (with not ideal acceleration). The spark advance is still great at high rpm, where the power is People running high end configs would be gladly surprised if they would try an ignition. You are right they are less frequent on vertical than Horizontal or Piaggio. The MVT is a great ignition, and probably the one to get if you need 12v. But for reference, 0.005" BTDC seemed to work the best on multiple configurations. Their instructions call for more, which is not needed. Selletra and PVL. Well, this is GM vs Ford vs Dodge kind of comparison. Myself I like Ford and PVL , probably because they were my first buy, liked them and continued with them hahaha Both are equally good. I did not try the new Selletra, but it would have been equally good. At the end of the day, technically it's just firing at a certain degree on a given rpm, and all variable curves developped for our little engines can't differ thaaat much. (they do a bit, but for the last details on a dyno) Didn't expect to write that much haha This makes perfect sense and I appreciate the lengthy reply. Well, I've never been more sold on an aftermarket ignition. Going to try the TOP cdi first. I'm more lost now than I was when I was first getting into the scene 15 years ago and comparing pipes. The MVT appeals to me just because I see a lot of other people using it and there is good support for it within the aftermarket community, at least in the US. From what I gather, setting up an MVT would be similar to other aftermarket ones too thoght. I have heard of lots of problems with MVT but is that just because its more popular? Maybe so. I wonder why the pipe builder didn't like MVT - maybe its an Italian vs French thing. Thanks guys, looking forward to giving this CDI a try and maybe an ignition if that doesn't make things noticeably better.
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Post by billwill on Jan 17, 2024 7:38:50 GMT -5
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Post by yambw’s on Jan 17, 2024 12:10:35 GMT -5
EPIC!
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Post by billwill on Jan 17, 2024 20:01:15 GMT -5
Yeah still running stock ignition. And, running the Stage6 Sport Pro MK2 cylinder. What's interesting is running an aftermarket ignition seems to be much less popular in the vertical minarelli world, and since embarking on this saga, have had several conversations with guys who had even radical, high revving setups that didn't run one either. I really think its the pipe, but after swapping for the C16, should know for sure. I didn't have this problem with the Polini for race 4. Side note on ignitions, have encountered a few people who really dislike MVT direct digital on these - and that is the one that seems to be most popular in the states, at least with horizontals. Is there a specific one you'd recommend looking into? I was talking to the builder of the ST pipe and he was saying they prefer Selettra or PVL on vertical motors. I picked one of these up from Scootertuning on recommendation from someone in one of the facebook groups who had a similar build and swore by it: www.scootertuning.ca/en/crankshafts-needle-bearings/36036-offset-woodruff-key-to-advance-ignition-top-performances-1000000002683.htmlWas planning on keeping it on hand until I get things running the way I like. HPI race or HPI 2-ten. You could also consider the red Top Performances cdi with a timing curve. It replaces your oem cdi with one that has a true curve built into it. Worked like hell to find this manual for the Top Performances CDI online. In case anyone needs it in the future: www.motorparts.it/documenti/pdf_libretti/ISTRUZIONI_9924880.pdfI noticed that they include a 5º advance woodruff key, which with their CDI, advances timing to 17º +/- 1º at 8,000rpm. At around idle or 2,000 rpm, it sits at ~21º and adjusts to about 15º at 10,000 rpm and up, according to the chart below. I'm guessing that it is safe and recommended to run this woodruff key and doing so would be different from running a 5º advance key with a stock CDI, since they are adjusting the curve of the timing with the CDI? For reference:
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Post by fabster on Jan 17, 2024 21:03:39 GMT -5
This makes perfect sense and I appreciate the lengthy reply. Well, I've never been more sold on an aftermarket ignition. Going to try the TOP cdi first. I'm more lost now than I was when I was first getting into the scene 15 years ago and comparing pipes. The MVT appeals to me just because I see a lot of other people using it and there is good support for it within the aftermarket community, at least in the US. From what I gather, setting up an MVT would be similar to other aftermarket ones too thoght. I have heard of lots of problems with MVT but is that just because its more popular? Maybe so. I wonder why the pipe builder didn't like MVT - maybe its an Italian vs French thing. Thanks guys, looking forward to giving this CDI a try and maybe an ignition if that doesn't make things noticeably better. MVT quality control seems to be lower then PVL/Selletra. Feels cheaper in the hands too. I've seen MVT stator go, I would consider the other 2 more reliable. I still think it's a good ignition and it's the one I would run if I had an electrical waterpump. It's the go-to street ignition. Back-to-back comparison tough, a PVL is more "zippy". The more we learn, the dumber we all feel. But that still feels good !
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Post by fabster on Jan 17, 2024 21:15:50 GMT -5
Worked like hell to find this manual for the Top Performances CDI online. In case anyone needs it in the future: www.motorparts.it/documenti/pdf_libretti/ISTRUZIONI_9924880.pdfI noticed that they include a 5º advance woodruff key, which with their CDI, advances timing to 17º +/- 1º at 8,000rpm. At around idle or 2,000 rpm, it sits at ~21º and adjusts to about 15º at 10,000 rpm and up, according to the chart below. I'm guessing that it is safe and recommended to run this woodruff key and doing so would be different from running a 5º advance key with a stock CDI, since they are adjusting the curve of the timing with the CDI? For reference: I remember having one, but can't comment . I remember not being satisfied. In theroy it's good, but in practice it wasnt. But that was in my younger years, maybe I put the woodruff on the wrong side ! haha Yes, the woodruff would be safe, and required in that case. I'm curious of your own results !
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Post by billwill on Jan 17, 2024 21:27:34 GMT -5
This makes perfect sense and I appreciate the lengthy reply. Well, I've never been more sold on an aftermarket ignition. Going to try the TOP cdi first. I'm more lost now than I was when I was first getting into the scene 15 years ago and comparing pipes. The MVT appeals to me just because I see a lot of other people using it and there is good support for it within the aftermarket community, at least in the US. From what I gather, setting up an MVT would be similar to other aftermarket ones too thoght. I have heard of lots of problems with MVT but is that just because its more popular? Maybe so. I wonder why the pipe builder didn't like MVT - maybe its an Italian vs French thing. Thanks guys, looking forward to giving this CDI a try and maybe an ignition if that doesn't make things noticeably better. MVT quality control seems to be lower then PVL/Selletra. Feels cheaper in the hands too. I've seen MVT stator go, I would consider the other 2 more reliable. I still think it's a good ignition and it's the one I would run if I had an electrical waterpump. It's the go-to street ignition. Back-to-back comparison tough, a PVL is more "zippy". The more we learn, the dumber we all feel. But that still feels good ! Makes sense man and I hear you, whatever the case a full aftermarket ignition is probably best. And maybe I end up there. Maybe I'm being cheap or lazy in wanting just the CDI to work, or equal parts both LOL. Worked like hell to find this manual for the Top Performances CDI online. In case anyone needs it in the future: www.motorparts.it/documenti/pdf_libretti/ISTRUZIONI_9924880.pdfI noticed that they include a 5º advance woodruff key, which with their CDI, advances timing to 17º +/- 1º at 8,000rpm. At around idle or 2,000 rpm, it sits at ~21º and adjusts to about 15º at 10,000 rpm and up, according to the chart below. I'm guessing that it is safe and recommended to run this woodruff key and doing so would be different from running a 5º advance key with a stock CDI, since they are adjusting the curve of the timing with the CDI? For reference: I remember having one, but can't comment . I remember not being satisfied. In theroy it's good, but in practice it wasnt. But that was in my younger years, maybe I put the woodruff on the wrong side ! haha Yes, the woodruff would be safe, and required in that case. I'm curious of your own results ! Noted, I’ll definitely be here first with the results!
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Post by 190mech on Jan 18, 2024 6:06:00 GMT -5
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Post by billwill on Jan 18, 2024 7:11:33 GMT -5
Wow this is pretty amazing... if I had more time and was more confident in checking timing/using a timing light, etc, I would give this a go. Heck, we'll see if this new CDI I have coming works and maybe I give this a go. At the very least, I'm excited to see how this variable timing affects power at different rpm ranges.
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Post by Lucass2T on Jan 18, 2024 9:59:47 GMT -5
Wow this is pretty amazing... if I had more time and was more confident in checking timing/using a timing light, etc, I would give this a go. Heck, we'll see if this new CDI I have coming works and maybe I give this a go. At the very least, I'm excited to see how this variable timing affects power at different rpm ranges. A while ago I was on the brink of buying one of these red TP cdi's. Earlier I found an Athena one 2nd hand (also with a timing curve). But it was faulty unfortunately. www.athena.eu/en-us/cdi-kit-with-settable-advance-P27982.htmcdn.athena.eu/2b649af1-fc18-403c-91c0-c6bf7c2bc1e2.pdfNever followed through buying another cdi. So I am really curious how you like it.
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