Post by kosmos on Aug 3, 2023 1:44:38 GMT -5
So, the Honda Elite has a CVT that people like to mod, because it has a skinnier belt and less up and down gear ratios than most modern scooters have. And there is a lot of confusion between a honda dio and a honda elite scooter in terms of cvts and stuff. the big problem is that the Dio's were a Japanese bike while the Elite's were an American bike. So noone knows the differences between the Elite's and the Dio's.
Some of the things I've noticed which might apply to scooters in general, I'm going to post about in this thread any time I come across them. Ive got a few already specifically about the Honda Elite and the difference between Dio's and what people use to mod and do to them with.
First, what's got me to make this thread was I just had a belt break. I took suggestions and stuff from this forum and others and had no idea about how a variator works; or how it will or won't push a belt all the way out to the edge of a variator or not. and mods and or things people have done to get better "variating" for lack of a better term, to their bikes.
I took some of them into consideration and tried one thing. Ended up with a breakdown. heres story
Just had a belt get tore up on me. What did I do? I went through my box of stuff, and found a ramp plate and when I measured the height of it compared to the one I was using, it was around .5mm taller than the ramp plate I was using.
My belt wasn't going up to the top of the variator and I didn't know why. Doesn't make no sense to me, as long as the roller weights push up to the bottom of the variator basket, it should push the variator all the way over. Only the width of the belt would allow it to sink lower than the edge of the variator and fixed pulley half on the drive side of the CVT. I started thinking that maybe the variator wasn't pushing over far enough because of some cheap ramp plate. I thought maybe a higher ramp would work.
Right after putting the higher ramp plate on, I noticed rubber marks showing up on my variator. It was getting black spots on it. I noted it but didn't make too much of it. I went out on a run about 4 days later down to the store and back. about a half mile from the house, I smelled burning rubber and the scooter pretty much had no more pull to it. I stopped, and thought the belt was broke but, the belt had flipped around and the teeth were almost ate off.
Came back took it apart and looked, and the plastic slide guides had melted, teh roller weights were getting chewed up, the variator somehow made it out fine without any damage to it. belt was half of the teeth where chewed up off the belt. it didn't break it but it flipped as I went down the road. Any more riding it I would have torn the variator up.
I was a Keli variator and the ramp plate came from, IDK were.
I believe the higher ramp plate set the two V-angles of the CVT off, and caused wear on the front drive side, especially on the variator since it was pushed over a bit from the Driven side a wee bit. causing the belt to get hot and melt against the variator and probably heat up and melt down the plastic slides and then, it ran wobbly and the belt flipped around.
I thought less space between the fixed drive pulley and the movable face would mean somehow the variator movable face would come out further than with more space. Placing it against the fixed face further/more. Pushing the belt up higher.
Yea that sounds about right but, I think just a new variator would be a better bet than trying to move the belt over with it riding against a fixed pulley half on the rear driven side that cant move over to match the level with the front movable pulley the height of it starts at.
So the solution to this, variator not topping out /belt issue, is to just get a good quality variator. And I was using Dr Pulley sliders too. 8 grams with a Malossi cast iron 72cc kit, had tried 9 grams. maybe I was unsure if the variator ever topped out as I was just looking for wear spots on the end of the variator since I rode it so much and didn't mark it with a sharpie.
and as far as going to the other end, unless the rear movable driven face can extend out further, then that same can happen on that side and cause an uneven belt and cause the same problem there.
So the magic of a variator is different than what I was thinking, basically is what I'm saying here. i came to the conclusion I could adjust it because of so many people shimming this and that. its fine, people, you guys whoever can mod all day and do these things but, from my experience on a totally fine running bike, I get problems without thinking it fully through. I got the idea from seeing so much of that and then ran it and noticed issues then had breakdowns.
I had no rubber marks on my variator from this before I exchanged the ramp plate on it for probably at least 500 miles since I put this together. this happened within probably 50 or so miles. And I noticed rubber marks being left on the variator after 20 or so miles.
If you tried to lower the face of the movable (variator) drive ramp, by shaving the variator face or whatever then, as soon as the bike starting going, the roller weights would by centrifical force with nothing holding it back, push the variator right were it would be going to be at in the first place, negating any benefits from doing it.
So maybe this is not a good one. But maybe someone can come along and explain to me how this works. But just did a quick thought about it and ... maybe, if I had spaced out the driven pulley with how much the ramp plate pushed forward simultaneously then the two rear halves; look at the CVT like this, laying on its side pointed up. the rear pulleys on each drive and driven side are on the bottom. So maybe if I'd spaced out the driven side over as much as I pushed the variator up, then they might have matched up and not caused rubber to burn. but then, it would make logical sense that the variator would max itself out, while the driven sides pulley wouldn't get pulled down as far into the rear pulley, unless you had a really taught belt. Because if you had any slop in your belt, then the variator wouldnt push as far up as it would with it sitting closer up along the drive boss to the fixed drive pulley to begin with.
I guess for me from now on, I'm not going to go along with, believe any magic when it comes to mechanical stuff like this. And yes no you can't convince me, its just mechanically incorrect. These are known things. One thing for example, is running a tight belt. one that requires the springs to be compressed without something to stabilize it, than it is to start with. thats going to cause uneven pressure against the two different, drive and driven, movable faces, wearing out the seals, plastic slide guides in the drive side, and seals on the driven side, and cause premature wear. If I ever have a belt that seems too tight to me, I won't run it or if its barely tight, I'll keep an eye on things.
I have had multiple breakdowns from this sort of thing, and issues like higher engine temps because of this. Maybe if it can break itself in, the temps might come down but, I noticed slide guides getting wear marks on them from tight belts before.
Maybe I can do an example. I took pics of my last slide guides, and they started getting digging in marks with a belt that was a tad bit tighter than I was used to last time. Those marks didnt' appear before I ran the tighter belt. That ended up with my engine temperatures rising. I just replaced my slide guides with some of the same brand, brand new and I can check them in a few hundred miles for any kind of wear and I took pictures of the old ones and show them for a compare. What would make me not consider anything else is even my variator didn't get touched when the last thing happened. the plastic slide guides did their job and kept the ramp plate from digging into the variator because there was no uneven tension on the two pulleys.
Anyway, I'll post some other things I've saw here later too.
Some of the things I've noticed which might apply to scooters in general, I'm going to post about in this thread any time I come across them. Ive got a few already specifically about the Honda Elite and the difference between Dio's and what people use to mod and do to them with.
First, what's got me to make this thread was I just had a belt break. I took suggestions and stuff from this forum and others and had no idea about how a variator works; or how it will or won't push a belt all the way out to the edge of a variator or not. and mods and or things people have done to get better "variating" for lack of a better term, to their bikes.
I took some of them into consideration and tried one thing. Ended up with a breakdown. heres story
Just had a belt get tore up on me. What did I do? I went through my box of stuff, and found a ramp plate and when I measured the height of it compared to the one I was using, it was around .5mm taller than the ramp plate I was using.
My belt wasn't going up to the top of the variator and I didn't know why. Doesn't make no sense to me, as long as the roller weights push up to the bottom of the variator basket, it should push the variator all the way over. Only the width of the belt would allow it to sink lower than the edge of the variator and fixed pulley half on the drive side of the CVT. I started thinking that maybe the variator wasn't pushing over far enough because of some cheap ramp plate. I thought maybe a higher ramp would work.
Right after putting the higher ramp plate on, I noticed rubber marks showing up on my variator. It was getting black spots on it. I noted it but didn't make too much of it. I went out on a run about 4 days later down to the store and back. about a half mile from the house, I smelled burning rubber and the scooter pretty much had no more pull to it. I stopped, and thought the belt was broke but, the belt had flipped around and the teeth were almost ate off.
Came back took it apart and looked, and the plastic slide guides had melted, teh roller weights were getting chewed up, the variator somehow made it out fine without any damage to it. belt was half of the teeth where chewed up off the belt. it didn't break it but it flipped as I went down the road. Any more riding it I would have torn the variator up.
I was a Keli variator and the ramp plate came from, IDK were.
I believe the higher ramp plate set the two V-angles of the CVT off, and caused wear on the front drive side, especially on the variator since it was pushed over a bit from the Driven side a wee bit. causing the belt to get hot and melt against the variator and probably heat up and melt down the plastic slides and then, it ran wobbly and the belt flipped around.
I thought less space between the fixed drive pulley and the movable face would mean somehow the variator movable face would come out further than with more space. Placing it against the fixed face further/more. Pushing the belt up higher.
Yea that sounds about right but, I think just a new variator would be a better bet than trying to move the belt over with it riding against a fixed pulley half on the rear driven side that cant move over to match the level with the front movable pulley the height of it starts at.
So the solution to this, variator not topping out /belt issue, is to just get a good quality variator. And I was using Dr Pulley sliders too. 8 grams with a Malossi cast iron 72cc kit, had tried 9 grams. maybe I was unsure if the variator ever topped out as I was just looking for wear spots on the end of the variator since I rode it so much and didn't mark it with a sharpie.
and as far as going to the other end, unless the rear movable driven face can extend out further, then that same can happen on that side and cause an uneven belt and cause the same problem there.
So the magic of a variator is different than what I was thinking, basically is what I'm saying here. i came to the conclusion I could adjust it because of so many people shimming this and that. its fine, people, you guys whoever can mod all day and do these things but, from my experience on a totally fine running bike, I get problems without thinking it fully through. I got the idea from seeing so much of that and then ran it and noticed issues then had breakdowns.
I had no rubber marks on my variator from this before I exchanged the ramp plate on it for probably at least 500 miles since I put this together. this happened within probably 50 or so miles. And I noticed rubber marks being left on the variator after 20 or so miles.
If you tried to lower the face of the movable (variator) drive ramp, by shaving the variator face or whatever then, as soon as the bike starting going, the roller weights would by centrifical force with nothing holding it back, push the variator right were it would be going to be at in the first place, negating any benefits from doing it.
So maybe this is not a good one. But maybe someone can come along and explain to me how this works. But just did a quick thought about it and ... maybe, if I had spaced out the driven pulley with how much the ramp plate pushed forward simultaneously then the two rear halves; look at the CVT like this, laying on its side pointed up. the rear pulleys on each drive and driven side are on the bottom. So maybe if I'd spaced out the driven side over as much as I pushed the variator up, then they might have matched up and not caused rubber to burn. but then, it would make logical sense that the variator would max itself out, while the driven sides pulley wouldn't get pulled down as far into the rear pulley, unless you had a really taught belt. Because if you had any slop in your belt, then the variator wouldnt push as far up as it would with it sitting closer up along the drive boss to the fixed drive pulley to begin with.
I guess for me from now on, I'm not going to go along with, believe any magic when it comes to mechanical stuff like this. And yes no you can't convince me, its just mechanically incorrect. These are known things. One thing for example, is running a tight belt. one that requires the springs to be compressed without something to stabilize it, than it is to start with. thats going to cause uneven pressure against the two different, drive and driven, movable faces, wearing out the seals, plastic slide guides in the drive side, and seals on the driven side, and cause premature wear. If I ever have a belt that seems too tight to me, I won't run it or if its barely tight, I'll keep an eye on things.
I have had multiple breakdowns from this sort of thing, and issues like higher engine temps because of this. Maybe if it can break itself in, the temps might come down but, I noticed slide guides getting wear marks on them from tight belts before.
Maybe I can do an example. I took pics of my last slide guides, and they started getting digging in marks with a belt that was a tad bit tighter than I was used to last time. Those marks didnt' appear before I ran the tighter belt. That ended up with my engine temperatures rising. I just replaced my slide guides with some of the same brand, brand new and I can check them in a few hundred miles for any kind of wear and I took pictures of the old ones and show them for a compare. What would make me not consider anything else is even my variator didn't get touched when the last thing happened. the plastic slide guides did their job and kept the ramp plate from digging into the variator because there was no uneven tension on the two pulleys.
Anyway, I'll post some other things I've saw here later too.
