Post by 90GTVert on Mar 30, 2024 6:48:58 GMT -5
We've had high energy bills for a bit. A forum member was kind enough to try to help me with some HVAC issues with phone support, but he thought most likely repair was going to be expensive and the system is 12 years old with seemingly constant problems for the last 5 years so we just ran it on aux heat for months now. That has been expensive so we are getting the whole HVAC replaced with new vents and everything.
We had a home energy audit because it was only $100 though the electric company's program. They did a blower test where they put a fan on a door and push air through the house. The 34 year old windows and doors were what we were largely suspicious of, but they said those were surprisingly good. We do have a considerable amount of leakage between the living space and attic though. Air could easily be felt coming through all electrical sockets and around crown molding.
The energy auditor (salesman) recommended attic and crawlspace encapsulation to fix this and claimed it should create substantial energy savings. Crawlspace encapsulation is out for us. I think it would be the least effective and some have said that in our area it is common to have moisture/mold/mildew problems when the crawlspace is sealed so you would need to add a dehumidifier for another couple thousand dollars. Again the house is 34 years old and the crawlspace is still clean and dry. The auditor even commented how clean it was compared to what he sees often. I don't think that's money well spent at this point.
Our ceiling is 2x4s with roll insulation. The auditor said that we should have 12-16" of insulation for the ceiling to attic so they want to blow loose fill in, leaving a walkway to reach the air handler. They would also replace some recessed lighting buckets to be able to seal those off and say they will seal all electrical entries, around vents, plumbing and whatever else goes from living space to attic. A new bathroom fan would need to be installed with a timer because they say the house can be sealed too well and you need some circulation and they would re-route our bathroom venting because apparently it doesn't meet current code or standards. That's about $8,000 after energy rebates of around $4,000.
The company is from a couple of hours away, but that's who the local electric company deals with I guess. There's a local company as well, so we got them to come out for an estimate. That guy did an estimate for a somewhat similar treatment for $7000 before any rebates, but it doesn't sound as thorough and I think the other company is likely to do a better job there... but if it goes down substantially once he gets the rebate info it may be a much better option financially. He doesn't recommend this though. He says sealing the attic by spray foaming the underside of the roof and the gable ends would be a much better option and way more energy efficient. That's $11,000 before any rebates. That company also does HVAC, though they aren't who we're using for that, but says they will take care of getting an HVAC rebate for us if we go with them for either service... which the HVAC contractor never said anything about or the first auditor.
My initial thought trying to reason this out was that it makes more sense to seal off the living space because you're heating and cooling just that area basically. Less volume of connected space. The 2nd guy was very clear that the roof coating method is much better. I don't get it. I understand that the air handler and ducts are in a better controlled environment, but the attic and living space still "communicate" as they do now so you're heating and cooling a greater volume of air.
I've researched a little so far. I spoke with 2 good friends. One has done construction and the other was a roofer and now installs audio/video from simply hanging a TV to half million dollar home theaters so he's seen the range of local attics and crawlspaces from having to run wires and such daily. One friend said, you know when we install roofing there are ridge vents and soffit vents for a reason. The roof needs to breathe. He said he has definitely seen plenty of attics with spray foam on the underside of the roof though. He has only seen 1 that he recalls with 12-16" built up with insulation blown in and said most around here, even the high dollar homes, are just 2x6 ceilings. He agrees that it makes more sense to him to seal the living space though.
The other friend was immediately troubled by the idea of sealing the roof. In the estimate, it sounds like they would be sealing the whole roof and sealing off the soffit vents. Hard to tell 100% by the wording, but I can clarify at some point with the estimator. Anyway, that friend says NO NO NO to the roof stuff. He says we're asking for trouble. For one, the vents are there for a reason. The roofing needs to breathe or moisture can become an issue and is likely to in this area. Also, with foam on everything you won't know if you do get a leak. If a leak goes untreated then it will penetrate more and more of the roof and you could have some major damage before you ever know about it. He did say that modern construction may allow for more sealed areas by venting in other ways where needed, but thinks it's a terrible idea for us.
Some online research suggests that some realtors don't like selling homes with sealed roofs because it can be harder to make a sale. That sounds like a good indication that my friend is correct that it's risky. The HVAC guy says it works great though.
At this point, I think the roof solution is out. The idea of spending a bunch of money to potentially ruin the roof is not appealing and frankly scary. I'm doubting if we should do any of it right away. The HVAC is a must and we have given the contractor the green light there so we're just waiting on the contract and such. I live with my parents and they are retired on a fixed income and I sure don't make much money so it's not like we have money to burn here. I'm thinking we'd be better off to do the HVAC and see how that goes, which also gives us time to research and evaluate things better. Maybe go with the 2nd company on the ceiling stuff, because they should be comparatively cheap if they get the same rebates.
My parents are less skeptical than me and get sucked into sales a bit more so they have been leaning toward getting something done beyond the HVAC right now. Telling them that the estimate is only good for 20 days and then trying to offer a bigger discount if we do it within a week because one company needs to fill some time slots has an effect on them. To me it's just pressure sales. Yeah, material costs can change... but I don't think getting it done say late this year would be a substantial difference. The auditors and estimators are just like car salesmen. They want to get you in that car today so you don't look around, so you don't forget about them and so on. They also fall for the, I had my roof done and it saves $100 every month. Maybe... or you're just being a salesman... but to save $100 every month you must use a lot of power for heat and A/C in the spring and fall milder weather because that's a very high percentage for most homes.
Sorry it's a long post, but y'all know I'm not short winded and I wanted to provide the details that I think are relevant. If anyone has had this done, knows much about this, etc... I'd appreciate any input.
We had a home energy audit because it was only $100 though the electric company's program. They did a blower test where they put a fan on a door and push air through the house. The 34 year old windows and doors were what we were largely suspicious of, but they said those were surprisingly good. We do have a considerable amount of leakage between the living space and attic though. Air could easily be felt coming through all electrical sockets and around crown molding.
The energy auditor (salesman) recommended attic and crawlspace encapsulation to fix this and claimed it should create substantial energy savings. Crawlspace encapsulation is out for us. I think it would be the least effective and some have said that in our area it is common to have moisture/mold/mildew problems when the crawlspace is sealed so you would need to add a dehumidifier for another couple thousand dollars. Again the house is 34 years old and the crawlspace is still clean and dry. The auditor even commented how clean it was compared to what he sees often. I don't think that's money well spent at this point.
Our ceiling is 2x4s with roll insulation. The auditor said that we should have 12-16" of insulation for the ceiling to attic so they want to blow loose fill in, leaving a walkway to reach the air handler. They would also replace some recessed lighting buckets to be able to seal those off and say they will seal all electrical entries, around vents, plumbing and whatever else goes from living space to attic. A new bathroom fan would need to be installed with a timer because they say the house can be sealed too well and you need some circulation and they would re-route our bathroom venting because apparently it doesn't meet current code or standards. That's about $8,000 after energy rebates of around $4,000.
The company is from a couple of hours away, but that's who the local electric company deals with I guess. There's a local company as well, so we got them to come out for an estimate. That guy did an estimate for a somewhat similar treatment for $7000 before any rebates, but it doesn't sound as thorough and I think the other company is likely to do a better job there... but if it goes down substantially once he gets the rebate info it may be a much better option financially. He doesn't recommend this though. He says sealing the attic by spray foaming the underside of the roof and the gable ends would be a much better option and way more energy efficient. That's $11,000 before any rebates. That company also does HVAC, though they aren't who we're using for that, but says they will take care of getting an HVAC rebate for us if we go with them for either service... which the HVAC contractor never said anything about or the first auditor.
My initial thought trying to reason this out was that it makes more sense to seal off the living space because you're heating and cooling just that area basically. Less volume of connected space. The 2nd guy was very clear that the roof coating method is much better. I don't get it. I understand that the air handler and ducts are in a better controlled environment, but the attic and living space still "communicate" as they do now so you're heating and cooling a greater volume of air.
I've researched a little so far. I spoke with 2 good friends. One has done construction and the other was a roofer and now installs audio/video from simply hanging a TV to half million dollar home theaters so he's seen the range of local attics and crawlspaces from having to run wires and such daily. One friend said, you know when we install roofing there are ridge vents and soffit vents for a reason. The roof needs to breathe. He said he has definitely seen plenty of attics with spray foam on the underside of the roof though. He has only seen 1 that he recalls with 12-16" built up with insulation blown in and said most around here, even the high dollar homes, are just 2x6 ceilings. He agrees that it makes more sense to him to seal the living space though.
The other friend was immediately troubled by the idea of sealing the roof. In the estimate, it sounds like they would be sealing the whole roof and sealing off the soffit vents. Hard to tell 100% by the wording, but I can clarify at some point with the estimator. Anyway, that friend says NO NO NO to the roof stuff. He says we're asking for trouble. For one, the vents are there for a reason. The roofing needs to breathe or moisture can become an issue and is likely to in this area. Also, with foam on everything you won't know if you do get a leak. If a leak goes untreated then it will penetrate more and more of the roof and you could have some major damage before you ever know about it. He did say that modern construction may allow for more sealed areas by venting in other ways where needed, but thinks it's a terrible idea for us.
Some online research suggests that some realtors don't like selling homes with sealed roofs because it can be harder to make a sale. That sounds like a good indication that my friend is correct that it's risky. The HVAC guy says it works great though.
At this point, I think the roof solution is out. The idea of spending a bunch of money to potentially ruin the roof is not appealing and frankly scary. I'm doubting if we should do any of it right away. The HVAC is a must and we have given the contractor the green light there so we're just waiting on the contract and such. I live with my parents and they are retired on a fixed income and I sure don't make much money so it's not like we have money to burn here. I'm thinking we'd be better off to do the HVAC and see how that goes, which also gives us time to research and evaluate things better. Maybe go with the 2nd company on the ceiling stuff, because they should be comparatively cheap if they get the same rebates.
My parents are less skeptical than me and get sucked into sales a bit more so they have been leaning toward getting something done beyond the HVAC right now. Telling them that the estimate is only good for 20 days and then trying to offer a bigger discount if we do it within a week because one company needs to fill some time slots has an effect on them. To me it's just pressure sales. Yeah, material costs can change... but I don't think getting it done say late this year would be a substantial difference. The auditors and estimators are just like car salesmen. They want to get you in that car today so you don't look around, so you don't forget about them and so on. They also fall for the, I had my roof done and it saves $100 every month. Maybe... or you're just being a salesman... but to save $100 every month you must use a lot of power for heat and A/C in the spring and fall milder weather because that's a very high percentage for most homes.
Sorry it's a long post, but y'all know I'm not short winded and I wanted to provide the details that I think are relevant. If anyone has had this done, knows much about this, etc... I'd appreciate any input.
You are correct in your gut feelings. They are just sales people trying to make as much money from you as possible, senior citizens are their prey of choice. I would not spray foam the roof, I have seen every single one here holding moisture, and require the attic space to be air conditioned or a dehu installed (more $$ for the company later) This could be different in your area, but doubtful. Blown in insulation is a good option. Sealing attic from living space will definitely help but the blown in insulation will do a good bit of that alone. As far as a new HVAC system is concerned that is a no brainer however I would go with a 14 or 14.5 seer system, no more. The higher seer systems are too problematic, and any money saved on energy will usually be eaten up by repairs over the life of the system. Are they replacing the ductwork too? Remember all HVAC (residential) systems have a 10 year parts warranty from the manufacture, but labor is not covered. Call me anytime.
