3/4 throttle needle tuning

[kosmos]

Does the 3/4 throttle jetting adjustment affect the full throttle and make it bog?  I'm juggling around jets right now, it takes off, idles fine.  up to around 1/2 throttle then it starts to seem to bog back a bit.  At full throttle it runs ok, no overheating, 360F max temps.

I went down up a notch on my needle, from 2nd clip to 3rd.  Also its dellorto needles so i swapped from w7 2nd notch up from bottom to w9 3rd notch, to lean 3/4 throttle a little bit.  It ran better but still have a slight bog, miss at higher throttle @ 3/4 and greater. 

So would my jetting issue be ccoming from 3/4 throttle?  Cause I don't want to go juggling jets all night and find it overheats then it runs way too cool by swapping main jets. 

Just some experience from this is what im asking for.  So I can give up sooner.  I rebuilt the bike again, using the official Honda tools on my 2001 elite.  That way the liquid sealant isn't setting on a 350F case half when I slip the case half over the frozen overnight with bearings on it crankshaft, my theory was the seal didnt get a chance to set up and couldnt because it was too hot and I was having a slight leak between the case halves.

When I got done and took it for a spin, no air filter on it, it ran great, but it got a little hot.  95mj.  I figured one more upjet I'd be there but I want stealth, really would like to have it to keep eyes off me and be able to say its stock and the MCOO says its made to go not over 35mph, which is what the law says. lol

[kosmos]

Here is what i am seeing overall

With the airbox:
At 1/4 throttle, I get a hard pull. Then it sort of deadens some around 1/2 throttle. at full throttle, I'm tuning that by temps, and they are fine, 360max so far, with a long 3 mile run. When I let off the throttle, somewhere around 1/4 throttle I'm getting a sudden big surge in power and it will be idling down, then suddenly jump back up on me. I dont know how to take care of this. I dont know where its coming from. The temps even get hot if I hold it at 1/4 throttle, like too hot, 380's+. Maybe I should richen the end of the needle, but then the other problem would be made worse. that is 3/4 throttle. As I was adjusting the needle jetting to get the bog to go away from 1/2 throttle up to full throttle, it was even 4 stroking i think its called, bogging, missing, at 3/4 throttle at one point. So I kept using a fatter tipped needle, leaning it(for 3/4). The bogging got better and better and has mostly went away. But it seems real dead on 1/2 on up to 3/4. Then when I finally get to full throttle, it goes, and seems like it has better overall top speed, but like less power than I do at 1/4 throttle

Without airbox: to be filled in later. But as I first got this back together, I did one needle adjustment becuase it was smoking and not moving; too rich, at 1/4 throttle. switched from w10 that was in there, now that I think about it i cant really remember. cant recall really doing 2 needle changes but, I went from w10 to w9, then maybe ended up on w7. The difference is, w10 is a lean 1/4 needle, and very lean, largest tiped needles. to the w9 or w7 which is 2 steps down; from 1.8mm to 1.4mm tipped needle, on a certain clip setting to get 1/4 throttle settled out. It ran fine, with no 1/2 throttle bogging, no 3/4 throttle issue. Just got up to 380F before I came back and I didnt go on a too long of a run. but there was a good 1/2 straight stretch I floored it on. Hit maybe 385F max. I figured one more upjet on the main jet and It would run perfect.

I wanna keep this looking stock guys. Any tips here on what is exactly going on? if nothing lese, if i cant get this fixed, Ill just throw the uni filter on it, hope the upjet works and run it around locally.. I have no idea really why its so different in tuning between the airbox vs uni filter. Gotta make sure its running right so Im gonna try the UNI out. just to test it.

When I switched from the no filter to the airbox, i went from a 95 mainjet (needing to upjet to 98) to a 92 main jet. and from a w9 needle, 1.4mm end of tip, to w11 needle, 1.8mm tip. 1/4 adjustment has stayed the same I think in both situations. Ill double check that when i go back out.
Is there anything not seeming right about the 1/4 doing that and overheating on airbox but switch to uni and same 1/4 jetting and no overheat?(ill confirm that when i go back out). But it doesn't suddenly give me much more power, id love to have that kind of power all the way through the whole throttle; on the uni filter/no filter.

Seems like 1/2 throttle is lean or something and i need to feed more gas from 1/4 on up maybe while simultaneously richening up the needle tip. but as Ive seen, tho with no filter, one more 1/4 adjustment setting up and it bogs and wont move off from takeoff. and any more richer on the 3/4 throttle, and It has a lot of misses and wouldnt run full throttle without ?4-stroking. i think its called.

[kosmos]

I said screw the airbox, since its so difficult to tune, and I need something I can work on for some experience I guess first, at least to give me pointers while I'm trying to tune. Since a uni type filter gave me the easiest tuning, I switched to one of those.

Let me talk about the setup. It's got a Malossi cast iron 72cc bbk on it, and a 21mm dellorto phbg carb, and one of the jiangwayne type exhausts, not the 90cc one but the smaller version for 72cc. I think he had a smaller one than this so I got the one above it. Theres the one that looks chrome, with teh big V8 stamp everyone knows about, then theres one with a metal aluminum looking cover over it, thats for 90cc he sells. so that in order from displacement top to bottom is, 90cc>V8 stamped one. then he has I think, 2 below that. Mines the second up from the smallest. Other than that, 9gram rollers in a Keli pulley, and stock Elite transmission pulleys, stock elite belt, and a polini adjustable clutch, and clutch bell. 1500 center elite spring, and around the same triple springs in the clutch. Not much cvt tuning so far, just have heard that 9gram rollers are good for the Malossi cast iron.

Long story short if you dont want to read all the details is it hauls ass now. I get to 60mph on a straight stretch even higher maybe, my speedo only goes to 50mph (kymco). There seems to be a pipe kicking in thing happening around 55mph that with a slight downhill likes to push it to a high speed. I dont know if my engines not tuned for my exhaust or the other way around but, maybe some cvt tuning can fix this. It likes to slow down to 45mph up hills, but seems to hold that decently. Dont know if theres enough torque to keep it going up there to the pipes hit point. Maybe one of those Malossi wild lions yeaa. (have a corsa and pg long that needs rewelded sitting around; also needs a new piston)

Tuning along, at first, idled fine. Full throttle went along but I reached high temps fairly quick. Swapped from the 95 I was using at first to a 98 since I'd already took it on a ride and it was running hot at WOT. Took it a bit of a stretch but got up to 380F on a CHT within a mile. Would keep climbing if I kept going. hottest I hit was 39*. Upjet, upjet, and upjetting etc. I am at a 105MJ I believe now, and the max temps I got last night while it was cool out was 384F, for a good 3 mile stretch. Its ok for an elite (ive heard) but during a hot day this might spike above that. So my next step is to upjet that to a 108 and see how it runs.

Tuning the needle. I had a lean spot somewhere down low. I know it was lean, I would pull the choke lever when it would do this bogging and it would speed up. around 1/4 but i wasnt for sure if it was 1/4 or pilot jet. I even remembered I thought changing the 1/4 jetting to richer and it did nothing for the bike. But also, 3/4 throttle was sort of not doing too well on power. But full throttle was beating 1/4 power tho comapred to with the airbox. So things were going much better. I was having a hard pull back on me when I would let off the throttle on the airbox. Seems I might have discoverd why that was happening. Full throttle tho was doing pretty well by itself.

So I decided to tune the 3/4 throttle, figuring my pilot jet was lean possibly, Id just move to there. So I was using the w7-w8-w9 1.4mm tip needles for the phbg where I was tuning around. I was sitting on a 22 for the 1/4 throttle taper where It was running smooth for me. So I figured I'd go with a richer 3/4 throttle to see if that would help. This I think, was around a 102 or 105 MJ size I tried this. Temps were taking a while to get up there so I figured it would work out and be safe and I was around the right size MJ.

I tried a w16 needle, with 22 1/4 and 1.00mm end tip size. Top clip setting to reach my 1/4 tuning setting and the leanest I could make 3/4 on a 1.0mm tip needle, I'd had. Totally bogged at 3/4 throttle. Knew it was too rich. no power.

So I went up to the 1.8mm tapered needles. Leanest clip setting to richen the 3/4 as much as possible on a 1.8mm end tip needle, so a 22 - 1/4; 1.8mm tapered needle on bottom clip setting. So a w10 on the bottom rung on the clip setting.

3/4 throttle was much better. Almost perfect. 1/4 was showing me it was really lean at this point. was smooth up to around 1/4 throttle then it would totally have no power until I reached something like 1/2 throttle were the 3/4 throttle was taking over, more on the end / tip of the needle. So I needed to try to richen the 1/4 throttle. Wondered why this hadn't worked before. But it was pretty obviuos 1/4 was an issue.

W11 needle, one setting richer than the W10 on 1/4 and same end tip size; 1.8mm. Used bottom clip setting. It cleared up 1/4 and 3/4 seems pretty on.

And there we are. A little more messing with 3/4 on these needles and I have room to move the clip up some more on the leanest 3/4 needles phbgs have since Im at the bottom richest on it clip setting right now, and they make plenty of richer 1/4 setting needles with those 1.8mm tips, to go.

My 1/4 setting I'm using is 24 with no airbox, and theres even this oddball 1.6mm taper needle without any other options in the way with a 1/4 24 setting. so leanest clip setting with it. just a richer 3/4 tip size. Once I get the MJ tuned and the needle 3/4 sorted out as long as everything works the same/toghter after I'm done with changing the MJ. Its all done for that. Then on to the atomizer tubes, and throttle slides to see what they are even for on this phbg carb.

As well as trying to tune the CVT.

[monsterunderyourbed]

What is "3/4 throttle"? 😃 just kidding man, lemme pour over this post to see if anything jumps out at me...

[kosmos]

I just had a problem I couldn't fix with the airbox, the carb wouldn't tune tried everything. Maybe it was a non-experience issue. Ive had issues with the bike because of random things. I rebuilt the bike again, one last attempt. The theory was I had was that, I was keeping the cases hot while doing the liquid sealant and it was too hot and the sealant didn't get time to set up. I didn't cool down the one half of the case after getting the crank in one side was how I done it. So I bought the legit tool from Honda and did it. Then was going to try to tune the carb.

First after it was together I just started it to see if it would run. Took it for a spin and it seemed to run ok, got a little hot, could tell there was some tuning needed to be done, but ran like the full throttle was working fairly well, hot up at WOT and 1/4 had some lean issue. but wtv.

Then I tossed on the airbox, and it was pure hell to try to tune.

SO I took teh airbox back off,i wante dto keep it so it looked more stock, but I couldn't be dealing with that all day, plus the non-experience was no help.

ANd my last post was mostly success. I have everything running the full range of the throttle tuned, except like 3/4 throttle. I was close, then I needed to richen the Mainjet for WOT temps. WOT temps are now fine, 364F max the other day after doing it. The last post is all the little details I used to tune the Dellorto phbg carb. steps I went through. 3/4 seems worse than it was the other day now with the larger size main jet, but I was needing to adjust it anyway. I have good power through up to around 1/2 throttle and then it seems a little dull, no sudden like pull backs, or nothing. Full throttle seems to have good power. Maybe a little less than it did before the last MJ change. Still a getting XP experience. Maybe if i lean up the 3/4 a little, I can get better throttle response at 3/4. I can go either way tho, I have plenty of room with all these dellorto needles.

3/4 is the end of the needle as it pulls up out of the carb with the throttle slide. and the clip position. the point. 1/4 starts as the needle begins to angle down towards the point. around that throttle position, you need more fuel to accomodate the more air coming through the carb. and more and more. when you get up to the throttle all the way open, that venturi affect pulls more gas up, and at Wide Open, it pulls it straight out of the mainjet. up until before then it uses the space between the atomizer tube and needle as it pulls up from the top to the bottom, point of the needle.

If you check out a phbg needle chart, you'll see what I did. this was successful for me, just so maybe anyone else can use it for something to tune theirs, and for me to have a record of it somewhere.




I would suggest getting legit dellorto needles (treatland has some) instead of aftermarkets, beucase they (aftermarket) don't fit the clips right. So you will bend the cliips out of shape real quick while tuning and either run out or it would just save you money in the long-(emphasizing)ggggggggg run. Might take you a long time and you might want to use one of them carbs for a long time.

[mopedmofun]

My advice, while small, is pick. Air filter, or no air filter. I was working on a mostly stock bike before, kept going from air filter to no air filter. Changing this and that, it was a waste of time. I decided to keep the filter and tune to that.

Switching back and fourth complicates all intelligence learned.

[kosmos]

I had tried and tried to tune the bike with the airfilter. i was getting nowhere.

This is a crazy tune but it works 100%. forget what the pilot jet is, 108 main jet, and the needle... the needle is the leanest 3/4 one they make, there are 4 clicks for the little clip you put on it, and im on the 2nd one down. from the TOP. thats a LEAN 3/4 throttle. they make .6mm, 1.0mm, 1.4mm and 1.8mm. a 1.8mm 2nd clip down, and well you can look at the chart and figure out my 1/4 throttle. (its a 24). Guess which needle it is. sure is rich at the 1/4. well id guess its about halfway seeing what all the needles are.

the highest they go 1/4 is a 26. the leanest is a 16. each clip step down is 2. and whats weird is all the 1.4mm 3/4 ones, the richest they go is a 20. and all the really rich 3/4 ones, the .6mm and 1.0mm dont go under a 22 i believe, then the leanest 3/4 1.8mm go all the way from a 16 to a 24 maybe 26. Odd they'd tune that way

pretty big main jet and needs alean 3/4 throttle. no overheating. starts up fine. seems like I might be a little rich because i dont even need a choke to start it. that might have to be worked out. but it idles fine.

at least something worked and maybe later ill try to get the airbox to work.  i would like to see it tuned, with a stock airbox.  or maybe just put the stock carb on it now.  I dont know if my rebuild fixed a airleak or something maybe.  but i was having a hell of a time trying to get the airbox to straighten up.