Time for the next mod! A Malossi OverRange CVT. This one is sold by G-Force Powersports. It seems there are no good kits out there for large spline cranks, so G-Force put one together.
All of the goodies I ordered from G-Force Powersports. This is more than what's included in the overrange kit. Extra belts, different torque springs, and more roller weights.
The overrange kit that I ordered, the "OEM large taper"kit on their site, includes :
Malossi 6111108 Kevlar Belt (816 17.5 30). They do offer other belts to suit most applications, this is the proper belt for my scoot that normally uses a 788 17 28 drive belt.
Malossi 61 7151 finned variator pulley. This is the fixed half of the variator, and the star washer that goes along with it for large spline cranks.
Mallosi OverRange variator. The only number I see on this is 12801, stamped inside of it. I believe this is Malossi part number 6112801B, but I'm not 100% sure of that.
Malossi 2512807B variator ramp plate with bushings.
Malossi 2312806B Multivar drive boss.
Malossi 0812805B Multivar rear bushing.
4 spacers for the drive boss.
Malossi 19x15.5mm 3.8g and 3.5g roller weights.
Malossi 6111121 OverRange rear pulley system.
Malossi 7611882B grease. Malossi recommends this to lubricate the torque driver and a very thin coating on each roller weight.
2000RPM torque spring. G-Force Powersports may let you choose a different spring rate if you speak with them.
Kevlar Belt (816 17.5 30)
Multivar Ramp Plate
Finned Variator Pulley
OverRange Rear Pulley
*I think this is the correct number, but I am not completely sure. It seems to match up with the number stamped inside the variator (12801B). I suggest speaking with someone who knows for sure before ordering this part.
Last Edit: Nov 13, 2017 7:04:35 GMT -5 by 90GTVert
Comparison pics and info. Seems to me that just looking this stuff over might be helpful for ppl to get a better idea of how some of this stuff works.
To keep things simple, I arranged all of the front pulley parts in this order in these pics. From left to right : Stock, Hoca, Malossi OR.
Here are the three movable halves side by side. The Hoca variator shown in the center is a very common Malossi Multivar clone. They work very well as an affordable CVT upgrade and you can keep the electric starting system, unlike over range variators. The outside diameters are 95mm, 97mm, and 99.5mm. A larger front pulley can potentially create better high speed gearing, assuming the belt is capable of traveling to it's outer edges.
These pics show the assembled variator from the side as well as different angles of the ramp plates. It's easy to see the extra thickness of the over range variator. The additional size is the reason for needing to remove the electric starter components. Of course it has it's benefit, extended travel. Look at the longer guides that stick out the rear of the over range variator. They let the ramp plate and movable half move farther apart, without becoming separated. This is a key feature of the overrange variator.
These pics show the back side of the movable halves. You can see that both aftermarket variators change up the layout of the 6 ramps that the rollers ride in. The stock piece lays them out as 3 sets of 2 ramps close together. Both the Hoca and the overrange space all of the ramps evenly. The aftermarket parts look like they would be better balanced and allow the rollers to apply a more even force to all areas.
Here are some close-up pics of each. You should notice other changes to the ramp layouts, other than just spacing/positioning. They all use different angles and lengths within the ramps and ramp plates (shown earlier) to create different characteristics. The pics are ordered, stock, Hoca, Malossi.
These pics show a crucial area of the ramps to get the most travel and speed out of a variator. The outermost end of the ramps. Look at the stock variator and how it ends the ramps short of reaching it's rear edge. Now look at the two aftermarket variators below it. They both continue the curve of the ramps all the way out to their edges to encourage max travel.
Here are more views of how the ramps are setup for more length in the aftermarket parts.
Here are a couple of views of the roller weights that each variator uses. The stock variator uses 15x12mm rollers. Hoca uses 16x13mm rollers. Malossi OR uses 19x15.5mm rollers. The larger rollers help enable the variator to have more travel.
Here are the drive bosses for each variator. It's not hard to see a difference in length among the three. Stock measures just over 38mm long, the Hoca is 37mm, and the Malossi is 45mm. I almost always end up adding a spacer washer using the Hoca variator to give a bit more room for the belt to reach the center of the pulley.
In this view of the drive bosses, you may notice a difference in outside diameter in the stock vs the aftermarket parts. Stock is 21mm OD and the others are 20mm OD. It's not much, but every little bit helps. The smaller the drive boss, the farther you can get the belt toward the center of the front pulley for a better "1st gear" as some of us call it.
Now I'll move on to the fixed half of the front pulley. For these left to right is : stock, Stage6, Malossi OR. Stock has an OD of 95mm, the Stage 6 actually decreases from stock to 93mm, and the Malossi is 97mm.
In the pic below, I've put the Stage6 drive face on top of a couple of pens to level it out for easier comparison, since it has no fan blades like the others. They all seem to have similar angles. The main difference I see is that the stocker has a much larger flat area in the center. The ones that keep their angle closer to the center usually perform better for initial takeoff when the belt is riding low in front.
The front pulley should be covered pretty well, so let's look at the rear pulley / torque driver. Pictured on the left is stock and the right is the Malossi OR. I have Hoca rear pulleys around, but they measure out the same as the stock setup pretty much, only with a straight grooved torque driver like the Malossi instead of the stock dual-angle. If you aren't clear what this means, there are pics farther down. There's an obvious difference in outside diameter in stock and the OR here. Stock is 115mm and the over range is 128.5mm. While a larger front pulley allows for better high speed gearing, a larger rear pulley can provide better low speed gearing for stronger launches. This assumes the belt is able to reach it's outer limits.
On top of just being larger overall, the over range pulley seems to be designed to make full use of it's diameter. In the top pic you can see that the stock pulley rounds out, where the Malossi pulley is flat all the way to it's edge. This should make for even more usable area.
Here you can see both rear pulleys in their fully closed (top) and open (bottom) positions. The stock pulley leaves 15mm at it's outer edge when closed, while the OR pulley has 16mm of clearance there. When fully open, stock has 26.5mm between it's two halves at the outer edge, and the overrange has 30.5mm there. Stock moves a total of 11.5mm in it's full range. The over range moves 14.5mm.
One thing to pay attention to if you get an over range torque driver is this cover, and specifically how it works with your torque spring. The Malossi uses a cover that's 1.5mm larger in diameter than stock (45mm compared to 43.5mm). This can cause some standard springs for the minarelli to bind. Ideally, the spring should be able to rotate relatively freely. Some companies, such as Kombat, offer springs specifically for the OR pulleys with a bit larger ID to fit better. Springs for the GY6 50cc / Honda Dio may also work with the OR pulley.
If you look under that torque driver cover / spring locating plate (which you will have to because the Malossi OR rear pulley comes without pins, grease, and o-rings installed), you'll see another difference. The stock torque driver (left) has a dual-angle groove or path. The Malossi, and most other performance torque drivers, has a single angle path. It uses 2 sets of these paths that are cut at different angles to fine tune your CVT. The straight paths allow for very linear performance. The dual-angle paths can be excellent for your average street scooter though. They start off at an angle that allows them to get the revs up easily, then transition to a different angle at speed to keep RPM lower for cruising. Great for streetability, not great for all out performance.
Last Edit: Nov 13, 2017 7:05:07 GMT -5 by 90GTVert
Most of the install of this kit is like working with any other CVT parts, so I'm mostly going to show what's a little different. I started on the install by removing the old CVT parts. If you still have electric start components, those need to go too.
Once that was all gone, I needed to remove the starter boss so the larger variator would fit. I used a Dremel to cut through the boss and it came off easily afterward.
You'll need to replace the stock spacer that was behind the variator or starter clutch with the one included in the Malossi OR kit.
Once you get everything else set up, you may end up needing additional spacers to align the front and rear pulley. G-Force included 4 0.5mm spacers for this purpose.
You'll have to choose a groove in the torque driver and assemble it all, along with your clutch and contra spring. Don't forget to put the orange o-rings supplied with the torque driver in place in their receivers and lube up the torque driver (I fill the slots and the smear a light coating around). The nut supplied with the Malossi requires a 34mm socket instead of the typical 38mm. The clutch looks small now, relative to the new rear pulley.
I found that I couldn't get the belt all the way to the center of the front pulley, riding on the drive boss, with the variator as it came. Close, but not quite. I used 1.5mm worth of spacers to get the right clearance, which essentially eliminated the groove in the variator fan. Make sure spacers that you use here are no larger than the drive boss.
Finished assembly and marked the variator so I could see how far the belt traveled on test runs.
As you can see, not a lot of room for any larger pulleys in here.
My initial guess was to go with the purple Maximum RPM 1,000 contra spring and a set of 5g roller weights. I changed nothing with the clutch from it's previous setup. The clutch worked well, just as before. The rest of the combo was way too rev happy. On an attempt at a first test run I saw the tach max out (15,000RPM) when I went WOT. Even 12,000RPM trying to just cruise back with little throttle applied. I included a vid, mostly because high revving 2Ts just sound good. Made no real power revving that high.
Barely any belt travel there.
I swapped out the 5g weights for 8g weights and tried another test. It was better, but still revving out way too high. The 8g rollers were the lightest I had, so I swapped to a Naraku 1,000RPM contra spring for a GY6 50 that was softer than the 1,000RPM Maximum RPM spring. It fit well, and did the trick to get the revs down. Still using the 8g Dr Pulley roller weights, I got my first reasonably successful test run in.
I was seeing a steady 10,500RPM or so on that pass. Pretty much where T1 likes to rev. It should handle a little more, but I think it's fairly close. Anything else will be fine tuning. I'm guessing 7.5 to 7.75g would do the trick if any change shows improvement.
Below you can see the belt travel achieved. I was impressed for a quick run, not even maxing it out, with little setup time. I'm not sure if the lack of complete travel is normal for this system, related to my spacers added, or perhaps I just need to try and rev it out farther in "high gear".
I have been impressed by this kit. It performs very well out of the box. My other performance variators are modded to really see their potential. I've spend a lot of time fiddling with this or that to even get the belt down on the drive boss up front without worrying about surpassing the limits of a normal variator's travel. I did add spacers here and there, but otherwise I just tuned it and it performed incredibly well... and there's still more left at least for top speed.
I did 66MPH on the test run shown, sitting up. On a previous run with the old CVT I saw 60MPH in the same conditions. It would be nice, but I really don't expect my absolute top speed to go up that much. I'll find out sooner or later. Acceleration off the line is improved as well. That large rear pulley does it's job and gives you a deeper starting "gear". I wouldn't say any results are dramatic vs the last setup, but it was all modified and tuned aftermarket parts. Lots of time was spent on it to get it to work well. This just came out of the box and kicked ass pretty much.
The biggest drawbacks of this kit to me are price, at around $400 non-sale price from G-ForcePowersports.Com, and the lack of electric start. I already had no e-start on T1 to remove some weight from the crankshaft, but I do like it on most of my more regularly ridden scoots. The Hoca trans parts I was using totaled up to under $200, but again they took a lot of additional time and effort to setup with good results and can't offer the increased "gear" range.
I'm happy with it, and I'm looking forward to really seeing what it can do.
Last Edit: Nov 13, 2017 7:05:48 GMT -5 by 90GTVert
Good eye John ! In fact i think the mina engine is the only one ive seen with splines in the drive ramp now that i think about it more (again). It didnt make sense to me when i first discovered this in GY6,s and most if not all other 2T vari set-ups ive worked with. My Cobra (aka Work Truck) has no splines on that style either...I pondered that one for awhile when i worked on my uncles Cobra a couple years ago and saw how it was. I suppose it works with more centrifugal force and friction?? It works thats all i know
Thanks, it uses 19.5x15mm rollers...No cover modding needed !
I am VERY happy with this set-up so far and its not dialed in all the way yet. I started out with the ZTR1,500 torque spring i chose with the kit and a mix of 5.25 and 3.5g rollers and that was WAY too tight. I took the ZTR 1,500 out and swapped it for (a much lighter) autotech 1,500 yellow torque and that helped but the vari weight was still too light. I was hitting and holding 11,500 from 0-45MPH and not really pulling hard for my weeny motor. I swapped weights around and ended up with my heaviest 7.5Dr.P sliders. It flat rips compared to before and i didnt change a thing with my motor set-up so i would really know what this OR is all about and its IT . No playing around with shims and files! Just put it in, tune the spring and weights and let-er-rip . I still think a "homebrew" OR kit can complete with this but im stoked to find that there is a real "race' kit right out of the box.
Last Edit: Nov 13, 2017 7:11:43 GMT -5 by 90GTVert
Here's how to get rid of the starter boss if your cases happen to be apart.
With the crank out, you can see a last rusty lip (well, it won't always be rusty, but this one is). Use a flat screwdriver and a hammer and start tapping around the edges. Be careful not to damage the surfaces where the bearing or seal sits.
It should begin to separate.
Before long, it's off. Pretty easy. If you are able to, doing it this way will allow you to put it back if ever necessary.
Last Edit: Nov 13, 2017 7:12:38 GMT -5 by 90GTVert
When I looked for bearings to replace the ones in the rear/driven Malossi pulley, the Malossi kit with both bearings and a snap ring is part number 2011754. I saw it in the US for $50+ shipping... basically $60. It was available out of country for less, but by the time shipping charges were added it ended up right up in that range again at least. That's entirely too much money for a couple of bearings and a snap ring IMO, so I took some measurements and did a little searching.
The little ball bearing on the clutch end of the pulley said 6901LB. It indeed checked out to 6901 bearing specs of 12x24x6mm. I picked up two of those in ceramic hybrid form on eBay for $11.98 shipped. There were cheaper ones, but these were rated to high RPM. The needle bearing was a bit more tricky. The writing on it returned no results other than people mentioning it as a bearing for a Malossi pulley. It measured 17x25x18mm, so I did a bit of searching. I found a bearing from Honda in that size, part # 91103-GR1-003. I also found a Kawasaki bearing in that size, part # 92046-4001. I went with the Honda bearing. I knew that others I have used were NTN, although I expected either Kawi or Honda bearings to be of decent quality anyway. I got two of them for $28.31 shipped from partzilla.com. I was missing the snap ring, but really that's not hard not to damage and if you do one can likely be found in a hardware or auto parts store that will work. Otherwise, I got 2 sets of new bearings for $10-20 less than what 1 Malossi kit would cost.
The NTN Honda beraring.
Last Edit: Nov 13, 2017 7:14:41 GMT -5 by 90GTVert
Brent Smoking section, please.
Senna1Rossi: Ah, gotcha! Thanks, Fox. Does everyone see the Shoutbox, or just the people who you choose?
Feb 16, 2016 12:39:35 GMT -5
Fox: Anyone who is logged in can see it but it's down at the bottom so most have either chosen to ignore it or haven't discovered it yet.
Feb 16, 2016 18:42:39 GMT -5
Deleted: Wow, I just found this. I feel smart now, ha ha.
Feb 27, 2016 19:24:24 GMT -5
Silar: Ahh.. New feature for a new riding season! YAY!
Mar 16, 2016 17:12:34 GMT -5
Silar: Apparently this still is not being used much. hmm..
Mar 17, 2016 13:55:04 GMT -5
180°off: Anyone want to buy a Yamaha 2t that needs a complete rebuild?
Mar 27, 2016 16:00:19 GMT -5
larryhobman: What is the leanest jet size you would try on a 47mm setup, 60cc stock head with a A9 cam
Apr 2, 2016 20:17:30 GMT -5
Senna1Rossi: Thanks renagade281!
May 23, 2016 14:59:12 GMT -5
Fox: I don't really know how to say this but straight. I am Dave's Girlfriend Kellilee and bluntly and VERY SADLY he passed away early Tuesday morning. I know he would want ya all to know this. Thank You Brent for befriending my love he was very happy on here!
Jun 18, 2016 16:26:04 GMT -5
Fox: www.gofundme.com/29mgf6b8 I hope it is ok to pass on his gofundme page link. If not you will un-post it I'm sure. Thanks again all!!
Jun 18, 2016 16:31:18 GMT -5