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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 2, 2012 6:52:40 GMT -5
Not much of an altitude change here. On my longest rides I don't even see much elevation change.... 100ft or maybe 150ft over 200+ miles. On a regular ride The worst I've ever seen the humidity difference was on a long ride to a car show and it ran like crap early in the morning. Low CHT, sputtering, low cruising speeds, crappy throttle feel. Once the sun came out and the air started drying, it went back to normal and ran great. That was a stock airbox, no snorkel but on a mild 103cc. It was one of those mornings where there's no rain or mist or whatever, but water just keeps forming on everything while you ride.
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 2, 2012 19:38:03 GMT -5
It seems to me that once in tune, other than the noise and look, it would be hard to tell the difference in the Leo Vince ZX and the Leo Vince GP when riding. Both appear to be about even on power. The ZX is a little more willing to pass 9,000RPM... but not by much. The upper limit for peak power is around 9,200RPM. The ZX did a little better in my 0-35MPH runs than the GP, but the GP was really close and it had a minor headwind for it's 0-35 pass.
I have read that the ZX does a better job past peak output and that it is superior for that reason. I haven't tried to top out the ZX. I know I saw 9,800RPM on the GP when I was deciding on trans setup and still using the stock variator, so I don't believe it's too shabby either.
I've got the MRP on there now. Needs tuning and it's being more of a pain than the rest. It's really really dead till the revs get up. I had it on the stand with the wheel in the air at first and it wouldn't spin the tire. Ended up with stiffer clutch springs, stiffer contra, and having to lean the needle setting out and adjust idle mix to get it to start hitting. Right now it bogs like hell and then hits hard. Pretty much on/off. Pipes like that tend to make great power, but they can be a handful to tune. I've seen 10,300RPM with some rollers that were too light, but it didn't like it that high. Right this moment it's in the low to mid 9000RPM range. Does well other than that bog. I need to work with it a little more. I'm not going farther than weights and springs and carb though. I'm not reworking any more in there.
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Post by 190mech on Aug 2, 2012 21:01:41 GMT -5
Dang!I figured the ZX would have done better by having a real baffle cone,but the ZX does have some whacky cone angles too .. :stumped:
I took 50mm's out of the ZX headpipe(25mm small tube-25mm big tube) I have on my Eton which gave a bit of improvement,but dont know if it'll work with your build..
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 3, 2012 20:29:13 GMT -5
I've got a video rendering as I type. I'll get it uploaded once it's done and post it. That's got most of the details of it covered pretty well. While I'm waiting...
I used 6g sliders with a stiffer 2,000RPM contra than I had been using to get revs up. Basically no power under 8,000RPM. With heavy weights it would not hit or really struggled to. Even once the springs faded there was one time with a good tune where I watched RPM climb to 7,980 and stick there for a moment (this is at a very slow speed trying to get going after turning to a different road). Then 7,960... 7,940... and so on. I let off for a sec and then let the clutch kick back in and it bogged a bit but then went on as usual.
I ended up with 1,500RPM clutch springs. All other pipes used 1,000RPM. 2,000RPM springs got the revs up better, but had a similar result because the belt had started traveling too much by the time they kicked in. Sucks off the line... big time. Light rollers will make it take off, but it revs too high too fast. Anything much over 9,500RPM and it breaks up. I believe more porting would be necessary. It sorta works at 10,000RPM and beyond, but it's breaking up, so it was best to shoot for about 9,400 - 9,500RPM for max cruise.
Carb tuning was more trouble with this pipe than the rest. Since it's so dead till it hits, the engine runs really rich. If you lean out the main (85 used like the rest of pipes), then it's too lean when it hits. I set the needle all the way lean. Adjusted the idle mix, but trying to turn it in much made it want to die. The needle didn't even seem overly rich. I think the answer is just to set the CVT up in a way that it's able to hit from start to stop. I didn't feel it fair to spend tons of time on one pipe. I already spent way more on this one than others after I got the CVT dialed in initially.
Loud too. I tried to illustrate that in the vid.
This is the pipe with the most potential if one is willing to put a lot of time into tuning the CVT, carb, and cylinder to match it. It runs hot and it's loud. Not the best choice for a scoot that sees a lot of time on the street and in towns.
For the pipes tested with 185/128 duration on the stock cylinder...
Most Power = MRP
2nd Most Power = Leo Vince ZX or Leo Vince GP
Best Street Pipe = Leo Vince GP
Quietest = Leo Vince SP3
Cheapest = Leo Vince SP3
My favorite is the GP right now. Works great and makes power even with the ZX as far as I can tell. Looks the coolest IMO and isn't as loud as the ZX. Can't argue with the ZX either though. It does sound good, just louder than the GP and SP3, but quieter than the MRP that's too loud for a good street pipe for my taste. MRP is the pipe of the bunch if I were gonna race and put more time into the setup. The hit feels really good. All the others hit very slowly, while it kicks you in the ass when it finally wakes up. The MRP is quite a hassle to tune compared to the rest, but it may not be so bad if the porting allowed more revs so lighter weights could be used.
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 3, 2012 20:32:14 GMT -5
That was faster than I had anticpated. ;D Here's the vid. I think watching this will give you a good idea of what's right and wrong with the MRP for now.
EDIT : Also forgot to mention... When you watch the vid, especially the 0-35MPH, you will hear it break up as it hits. It does that at times, others it's fine. I'm not 100% sure if that's from it loading up while trying to hit or if it slips and overrevs briefly. The tach has just enough of a delay that it's difficult to tell. |
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Post by 190mech on Aug 4, 2012 5:14:05 GMT -5
Great vids Brent!!I always liked the MRP(i copied yours from the dimensions you gave me),it did have a good hit..Do they still sell that one?
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 4, 2012 6:49:05 GMT -5
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Post by stepthrutuner on Aug 4, 2012 11:41:58 GMT -5
Have you tried gapping your plug @ around 0.5 - 0.6mm to see if that helps the high speed breakup?
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 4, 2012 13:08:31 GMT -5
I have not. All of mine are gapped to 0.028". I'll give it a shot. I think I'm gonna advance the timing with the MRP just for the heck of if before I move on. See what, if anything, that does for the pipe hitting. I had hoped to do that this morning, but things didn't work out that way.
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 4, 2012 15:26:08 GMT -5
Thanks for that suggestion Reg. It was interesting. I dropped the gap to 0.5mm and it did smooth out a lot. It still doesn't want to rev higher than before, but it doesn't break up like it did. I hit almost 10,000RPM without breaking up.... but that was with prob a 15MPH tailwind and on a decline while tucked at 50MPH. I prob coulda done that before, but I didn't have that kind of wind. The other thing that I noticed is the hesitation to hit got worse. I was looking at my watch, that I don't wear lol, waiting on the hit. I can't swear that it's all from the gapping. Today also happens to be about 20% humidity. I can't remember the last time humidity was that low this summer. It's been stupid high humidity most of the time. That could have an affect I suppose. I noticed that it broke up more last night with cool temps and higher humidity than it had when I tested it earlier that day with a warmer and drier air.
Then I advanced the timing up to 20 degrees in hopes that the pipe would hit easier. It worked surprisingly well. I went from reading magazines waiting for the hit to having it hit just after it left the line. I was impressed. It felt like it started to lose it's steam around 9,200RPM. I'm not really sure though. It's so windy right now that it makes it tough to tell exactly what's what. I'm hoping I'll get a chance for a ride and a couple of 0-35MPH passes in the near future without the wind. If I do and it still seems to be working, I'll post an update vid to show the difference. I think I'm really starting to see why the adjustable ignitions would be worth the cheddar. Up the timing and make it hit early and then once it hits you can back the timing off the keep the heat in the pipe and extend the power. Maybe I'm dumb (please don't comment lol), but reading that just didn't have the same impact as actually changing the timing and watching it work different.
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Post by stepthrutuner on Aug 4, 2012 15:55:34 GMT -5
It was just something I remembered reading in Bell's book. And it seemed to help when I was having such problems. Be great if someone would make a computerized ignition that had inputs from air temp and density as well as exhaust temp and perhaps from a knock sensor with about four settable performance profiles for about $300. :drool: :drool:
This little fifty is being a good tutoring build and it is not ravenous for belts either. That can start to get expensive after a while.
Hey, are you gonna do any economy comparisons? What's your feel for economy so far? I guess you're not doing any very long rides testing all these set ups so that's kind of hard to check.
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Post by 190mech on Aug 4, 2012 16:09:21 GMT -5
There is a whole science for 2T ignitions.Each is set up for a certain build,there is no generic setup,but looking at modern MX motorcycle ignition curves gives a clue why our 'flat curve' ignitions are holding back more usable power.. I got this from KiwiBiker,its a curve from the 2T wizard "Wobbly".He designed it for an aircooled 125cc non powervalve engine;  |
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 4, 2012 16:26:15 GMT -5
Hey, are you gonna do any economy comparisons? What's your feel for economy so far? I guess you're not doing any very long rides testing all these set ups so that's kind of hard to check. I had cut out the long rides for two reasons. First and foremost, there was a point early on where I wasn't sure I was gonna even afford to put gas back in it till I could gather up some money. Saves a lot taking a 10 mile test ride vs 30-40 on most rides where I was trying to get fuel economy info. I've been fortunate that some members are using the PFS links and banner and I've got a few donations, so I can at least deal with gas now. BTW, thank you to the folks that click the PFS banner and thank you to the folks that have helped me with donations. It is very much appreciated and when I say it goes to projects and the site, there's a good example of just how much it helps. The second reason is, I can get a lot more done when I don't have to take a long ride. I can tell the performance info without a 2 hour ride. Not that I don't like to ride, but I'm already spending a huge amount of time just on installing, testing, tuning, writing, and making videos. I figured basically with Project 49 we can assume mileage keeps decreasing. I always ride it WOT... everywhere. If I'm in a 25MPH zone, I'm still WOT till I run up on a car. lol It's not like Project 90 where I may see gains from more power by using less throttle. As of now, I still need to be WOT or really close to cruise where I want to. I can say mileage must suck with the MRP on there now at least, maybe all pipes? I actually just ran out of gas for the first time. I know the project started with me seeing 60MPG. I use my odometer (no fuel level gauge), so I figured to be safe with a 1.4 gallon tank I need to put gas in by 60 miles. I brought it home from running after the spark plug gap test and was adjusting the timing when it died. No restart. I had 47 miles on the odometer since I last filled it and it was bone dry. No jet changes in that time. That also may give you an indication of just how much test riding I do already to burn gas/oil. Every run for every roller change, spacer change, spring change, etc... is about 3-5 miles and I swap stuff A LOT. I know the workers in the fields here have to think I'm crazy going up and down the road all day... and in a jacket, helmet, gloves, and long pants when it's 95-100 degrees. lol |
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 4, 2012 16:30:39 GMT -5
John, I had also read that on top of the curve with heavy advance till the pipe hits and then a decline, some would use a dip right as the pipe hits because of cylinder pressure at that point. Of course now I can't find an example on a quick search, but just picture a the straight line of max advance and then a half circle looking dip just as the pipe hits and then a steady decline.
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 4, 2012 19:33:23 GMT -5
Seems like it loses the hard hit a bit having the timing advanced. Not much difference when cruising other than increased CHT. The wind was down to 5-10MPH, but tomorrow is supposed to be 20MPH so I just ran it. Right about on par with the GP and ZX pipes.
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