Triton # 2 (T2) 49cc to 110cc & Nearly Everywhere In Between

[90GTVert]

[aeroxbud]

At least you know you will be starting from a solid base.

[190mech]

Thanks Brent!I could just see 10 more pages of anguish and pain trying to polish that turd!!

[90GTVert]

Jun 20, 2019 14:14:28 GMT -5 190mech said:

Thanks Brent!I could just see 10 more pages of anguish and pain trying to polish that turd!!

I'm just trying to learn where I can. If it were a good option, I would have made some attempt to repair the case. I appreciate your guidance.

[90GTVert]

It has been 3 weeks today since I dropped off the wheels to the powder coater and I hadn't heard a word. I don't like to bug people and it's not a rush, but I thought it was time to make sure they didn't lose my info or something since I was told I'd get a call from the boss the day I dropped them off and that it would take 2 weeks to get them back. Talked to the boss and he said he has the work order there, but the "paint" just came in because he had to order it. I said OK I'm not trying to rush anyone, I just wanted to be sure everything was OK. He chuckled and said "I guess I could have called you, but I'll prob blast 'em and coat 'em today". Still no idea on the price or if they're being cleared and at this point I just said screw it and they'll do what they do. I can't say I'm seeing the 5 star reviewed customer service still, but I'm not upset with the situation either. They have 2 huge ovens and do stuff up to 40ft long, so it's prob funny to them that some dude with 2 little scooter wheels expects roughly what he was told.

[90GTVert]

I split the cases a couple of days ago.




Big surprise here, but John was right. The cases are cracked worse than I initially realized.






I actually showed that to Ryan when he was here Sunday and he said he didn't even break through his cases on his latest build and mostly just knocked of the corner where it's raised to match the boost port area. We talked about trenching and pondered if it is really worth it or not.

My take is that it is worth something, but not a lot and I'm not sure that anyone knows exactly how much. For a stock engine, it would be fruitless IMO. Something like the high end racing engines would likely be the ones with the most to gain from it. I would have to assume that there's a reason that Malossi and the other companies that make aftermarket cases are doing it. I guess it could be like mirror polishing ports, especially in big 4Ts, where it's basically a way to impress customers and sell heads or porting jobs. I don't think so though, because you can find stuff like the 5BM Vino engine with trenching and aiming the reeds at the transfers or you can find racing 2Ts that do similar things and/or try to shield the crank from the mixture as much as possible.

I have considered doing a test of trenched vs un-trenched before and after with the same everything else. I don't even think I could take accurate enough data to show the difference though. I can only do stuff like timed acceleration and speed runs. My suspicion is that you would need a dyno to see the true story, because I'd guess that it's a fraction of a horsepower or a small percentage for the kind of stuff that I run. It would be a lot of time and effort to prob just realize that it was a failure of a test, or at least that's what I think. To my knowledge, no one has done a dyno like that, or at least that they're sharing.

I'll prob do a video about trenching at some point because it's a topic that I've never really seen covered on video. I've seen people talk about porting or flowing, but then they just port match and blend something here and there. Most likely I'm gonna say basically what I did above in it, but I am very open to input and evidence on that so I can make a more accurate video whenever I do it. Search terms that bring up pics of trenched and so on engines would be a great contribution.


Back to the immediate issue at hand for me, I'm prob still going to treat it basically like the case that just cracked. I don't really know exactly what it is or if it's the sum of all parts, but T2 has never ran quite like this so I hate to change too much. Could be the trenching that this time included the blending instead of a blunt shelf for transfer floors. Could be the 190/130 with the Peace Pipe or maybe the Peace Pipe really likes having a Penton style silencer. Those are the main things that are different from what I have done in the past with my setups. It did strike me as odd that it hated the 24/25mm carb and big KX reeds, even though I've ran a 24-28mm carbs on much more tame engines. If you recall when I first got it going, it appeared that no amount of tuning would make it happy with my PHBL and those big reeds. That's not totally a bad thing though, because I don't think most of us really thought my sport level 100cc really needed all of that anyway and the 21mm is so much easier to deal with as far as fit, and that goes a long way when you really want to ride the thing. Mostly bringing that up in case that provides a light bulb inspiring info point to anyone regarding this setup.


Moving further toward fact than theory... The 90cc stock case half showed up on Saturday.




Like most Minarelli clone ATV engines (maybe all?), it's got that darn bushing instead of the bearing that the majority of scoots use.






I really haven't had to deal with them much, so I don't have a good strategy. I'm not sure that I actually have removed a bushing since I put a Polaris 90 engine in the Venus and that was 9-10 years ago. When I did it then, I cut out the rubber and then used a chisel to cut in just enough to drive the metal shell out. Not the most fun I've ever had, but it worked fine.




That never has seemed great to me, mostly for the risk of digging in too deep and potentially gouging the cases. It's not the most critical area, but obviously we'd like to avoid that if possible. I thought maybe I could press them out with a couple of sockets and a bolt. It's just a bit different than any other bushings that I've removed in a similar fashion though, because it has a metal casing that you can't press on for removal thanks to the smaller opening on one side.

I had an old socket that fit pretty well around the bushing to catch it, but a case feature won't let a regular socket or tube fit very well. The socket that I had was cracked, so I hacksawed across the crack a bit and then broke out a chunk with vise grips.






Then the catcher socket would fit alright and I found another socket, bolt, nut, and washers so I could make up a quick pressing rig.




It didn't really accomplish anything. I managed to push the rubber till the steel center bottomed out on the catcher socket. The rubber just flexed and cracked more than it already was and loosened up the steel center, but the steel shell of the bushing never budged. I tried a little heat and it didn't help. So much for that idea.


When in doubt, I try to check a service manual. I have a Polaris 90 service manual... that manages to totally gloss over the idea of removing bushings. Next best thing I could think of was a Vento Zip because they're an oddball engine mount for scoots that uses bushings in the cases. That says to use 2 tubes and a vice to press out the bushings. Seems like basically the same thing as I just tried. If I happen to have a tube around that fits and is long enough, I may give it a try to see if anything different happens. Otherwise, I'll prob end up going a more similar route to what I did the first time.


Ryan said he was cleaning out his garage so he brought me a spare rear wheel... plus some gearbox parts and welding/brazing rods and a race fuel jug. I was starting to think his middle name may be Santa. I just happen to have the 120/80-12 Kenda that came off of the front of T2 that has very little wear and is not front/rear specific around as well. If you know me, you already know they must be united to form a spare. Not for any sensible reason. To smoke the hell out of it.




That got me thinking... I don't really want to just blatantly flog this thing doing a bunch of burnouts. I mean it's fine if that happens at a car show and normally I just wouldn't care, but it does freak me out a bit that I don't know where to get another cylinder like this and 45mm cranks are not exactly plentiful either. I'd like this setup to be good to go for car shows in late September or October so I'd hate to kill it with some burnouts or even regular riding. Damn. Have my beloved 96-103ccs really turned into grossly underpowered race engines that I'm afraid to use?

I think I really do need to come up with something as a day to day beater fun setup when I can. Of course now just happens to be the worst time ever because I just gave away money for Scoot Week, bought a summer riding jacket, have wheels in powder coat, have to replace tires on the TMAX, and all the other stuff. I've got an old Polini Sport 70cc that has sat on the shelf as and emergency backup for years with a Naraku crank under it. I'd kinda like to stay LC though, because I really need more problems. lol Would be nice to eventually have essentially an entire 2nd engine with 3rd bearing rig and all ready to roll. That said, if I can ever find more 100cc parts, I do love these things and would go that route over a 70 if the price difference is not crazy.


Hope y'all were looking for a good book to read.

[oldgeek]

I feel like the factory trenching really helped the Vino 5BM motor I had. Possibly the way the reed is positioned also helped.

Maybe we are just over doing the trenching? Are we giving the cases too much volume by going overboard? Maybe trenching should be more subtle. The motor can only use so much air/fuel mixture per cycle. Any excess in theory would just be more air and fuel that has to change directions each cycle. In other words the more you have the longer it takes which = slower

For getting the bushings out, I cut the rubber out with a hole saw, TACK welded a washer inside the shell and used a slide hammer. I had the case positioned over a hole on the bench, I stuck the slide hammer through from under the bench. BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM BAM

[ryan_ott]

Look at swapping in your Zuma case as a backup. I think the only difference was the pivot tube offset, flywheel taper and variator bushing. They have a nice full bearing transmission setup. Your wheels should also fit.

[90GTVert]

I got the bushing out. Pulled the steel center out with vise grips. Welded a washer in and hit it and the washer flew off. I was way light with just a few tack welds. I think if I spent a minute on it for more welds, it would have worked fine without even cutting the rubber out. I didn't have a hole saw small enough to do it quickly. Made a relief cut and then knocked it out with a punch.


Cleaned the cases in the ultrasonic cleaner. Then cleaned some leftover tough spots with brake parts cleaner. Roughed up the cases where epoxy will go. Cleaned with acetone. Put masking tape in place to prevent the JB from filling bolt holes.




Figured I'd try mixing in some aluminum this time. I ground some off of the old case half with a carbide burr. I don't think I accomplished much. Kinda felt like a hand cleaner with pumice.

[90GTVert]

I just found a Gileara 125 engine on eBay. Asked the seller how much to the US.
www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GILERA-RUNNER-FX125SP-ENGINE/362685465807?hash=item5471bd04cf:g:j3wAAOSwX0hdASE4

Bolt on BBK to 172cc. 20-25HP in reliable fashion is what seems to be possible; more when reliability is sacrificed. 67MPH stock in 125cc form according to one site.

Now here's where it gets crappy... when I try to look up stock parts they are only in Europe and a whole lot of it is no longer available. Aftermarket parts again are all Europe. Most of the cylinder kits have dried up and it looks like Malossi may be all that's around, but this is based on some pretty quick searching. There's no full OR kit that I see, so if it needed the rear pulley there goes $200+ shipping for a stock one from Europe. Kinda looks like if Malossi stops making the 172cc cylinder, then good luck with a top end. 25HP and 75MPH+ with reliability from a 2T sounds like a blast. ... but I don't think my pockets are nearly deep enough.

To get the engine that's non-running, top end, crank, wheel, and brake I'm guessing over $1000. Again then who knows what else that engine needs. If the gearbox is screwed, it could be hundreds more if parts are available. Exhaust will add a couple hundred more at least by the time it gets here.

It's also bottom mount so would require a frame reconfig. Then I don't know how out of place it would look, so it could get me pulled over and probably subject to at least $1000 in fines for improper registration.

Long story short is that I think I've been dreaming with the 125-180. Well, I already knew I was but I think I must face the reality rather than jumping at this. If I had a few thousand dollars burning a hole in my pocket, I'd have to try it because wow would that leave the stock 4T rental scooters at the lights and boy would it be fun to pass a whole bunch of Harleys with a 2T. lol

Please correct me if I'm wrong on this stuff. If someone else wants to jump on it, go for it. You'd prob just save me a lot of money and a lot of headaches even if I'm wrong about parts acquisition cost/difficulties.

[190mech]

I looked hard for a Runner 125/180 54mm stroke crank,Jasil listed them but nobody had any..(project shelved).
Then searched for alternate 54mm LC cyl kits,nothing for BWS100,Gilera zero,Honda AF16 YEP!Scoot tuning had a Taida kit 10% off ($208),looked at the 50mm AC jug I have and measured it to a Mina 54mm,might work,,Ordered it just to find out...Today its 15%(my luck);
www.scootertuning.ca/en/cylinders-stroker-100-130cc/1700001-cylinder-taida-120cc-54mm-stroker.html?search_query=dio-060-54&results=2
Hope it will splice on a Mina with some work,if not we will call it an educational exercise..Will keep y'all posted...

[aeroxbud]

Had a quick look on PM tuning for parts for a runner. They used to do so much stuff. Their record breaking dragster even used a much modified runner engine.
Looks like most of its unavailable now. Don't even have their own 54, and 55mm stroke cranks.
Sad times 😢

It's funny a couple of months ago I had a look at shiny red tunings website. He basically made his business from tuning and doing modifications to runners. Ten years ago he had quite a waiting list for engine work. Now it's all classic scooters.
I think the two stroke boat really has sailed off over the horizon now.

[90GTVert]

Jun 27, 2019 4:26:27 GMT -5 aeroxbud said:

I think the two stroke boat really has sailed off over the horizon now.

I think we're headed that way with four-strokes too. It's gonna suck. I'm way late, but I just now heard the fuss about the UK talking about no vehicles with internal combustion engines allowed to be manufactured starting in 2040.


The eBay seller got back to me about shipping the 125. He can't be bothered. He said it's prob 50 quid to ship in the UK. Maybe 200 to the US. He's not sure. Don't hurt yourself dude. Luckily I didn't plan to get it anyway.

[90GTVert]

It's gonna be hard to match 2 case halves with a crank in the way, so I took that out this morning. Decided to replace the crank bearings since it's out. I got as far as getting the puller/separator on one bearing when the phone rang.





It was the powdercoater. He just quickly said that my wheels were done. I said "OK I'll be up to pick them up today" and he said "great". That was the extent of it aside from a thanks from me and goodbye.

I got there about 2 hours later and the wheels were still hanging on a rack outside when I pulled in. After going into an office occupied only by 2 old dogs, I told a guy wandering around that I was here to pick up the scooter wheels and pointed to them. He said OK and then started taking bolts out of holes and unmasking. He took them down and went and blew a bunch of dust out of their centers that looked like leftover debris from sandblasting.

I went and put them in the truck and came back and asked "who do I pay?". He was kinda surprised. I could have just drove off with the wheels. I wouldn't, but he had no idea what was going on. He looked around and seemed to be trying to think. Then he said, "I guess you can pay me". Then he stood there like he was waiting for me to hand him money. This was not the same guy that didn't know what was going on when I dropped them off BTW. Totally different confused employee.

I told him that I hadn't even received so much as an estimate to date, so I had no idea what I owed. He said "that sounds like how things go around here" and then looked like he wasn't sure what to do. I told him that I was from 45 minutes away so I didn't want to have to come back another time if possibe. He said, "Yeah, f*ck that." He tried to call the boss and he wouldn't answer. He tried to text and he didn't reply.

He got me to go in the office to write down my info after I told him I'd go to Dover and then come back in 1-2 hours so maybe I could catch the boss without having to drive back and forth again. They've got the only Panda Express around me there and I wouldn't complain about some black pepper and mushroom chicken. I got my name half written down and he found a work order. Great. No, wait... it just had my info and the color. Damn.

I headed back to the truck because I told him I'd leave the wheels there till I paid since they don't know me. Not sure if he really cared either way, but he said that would be good. I got about halfway across the parking lot and he yelled out "I found it".

I walked back in and he told me it would be $237. I asked if they took credit cards. I confused him again. He said "No... or I don't know where it is". "Crap. Well, where is the nearest ATM?" 10 miles away. I went to grab the wheels again to bring them in the office while I prepared to drive 20-30 minutes to get cash. I got really lucky. I had asked my parents if they wanted to ride along and between the three of us we just barely scrounged up the cash so I could pay without the delay and then I just had to hit an ATM on the way to pay 'em back.

Sorry for such a long story, but it would be an understatement to say that I have not been impressed with their organization or customer service and am still confused as to how they have 5 of 5 stars with comments specifically about how great their service is and how fast it is. It took 24 days, with "2 weeks" as my expected finish time, just for reference. The whole time I never got a solid estimate. The boss was supposed to talk to me about clear coating or not. Add in that last year I drove up there to drop wheels off and couldn't find anyone when they were open. I'd say it's just my luck, but then the employee's comment of "that sounds like how things go around here" makes it seem unlikely that it's just me.


The breakdown of the bill was $112 for a 5lb box of color plus $125 for sandblasting and coating. I did ask the guy there, and he said he did 2 coats of clear so they'd be nice and shiny. I have no complaints with the price.


Now that you're thoroughly tired of reading, here are the wheels right before I dropped them off :







...And here they are now.











I decided not to go with the black or dull polished look. The color was called fluorescent neon yellow. It is bright. It's sunny outside and the camera turned down the exposure when taking pics of the wheels to the point that it looks like it was darker outside. I could actually see them hanging on the rack way down the road on my way to the shop. The guy at the shop said they are the brightest thing he's ever coated. Might as well make the wheels a safety feature, and this way no one should ever see me on T2 and wonder if that was me or not.


I do wonder why a shop that is supposed to be capable of doing wheels and installing tires and so on would not figure out that you shouldn't sandblast and coat the friction material on a drum brake. It kinda looks like they didn't mean to though based on the way it's masked.






I guess I will have to try to sand that off.


They didn't coat the center of the rear wheel. Not a big deal. I do wish they didn't leave a rough sharp edge there though. It feels like cut you sharp. I'm afraid it may get snagged and cause chipping or flaking, so I'm gonna have to sand the edge carefully as well.








There are some blemishes as well. There are a few indentations and multiple small black or grey spots.










Honestly I don't think most people would ever notice them though, just standing beside the scoot. The wheels are very glossy and very bright though. Overall, I'm not really upset with the job... but it certainly could have gone smoother.

[Jwhood]

Damn the deers will see that and bust a u-turn back in to the woods lol, they look good though I think with the tires mounted they'll pop even more