|
Post by 808ministroke on Dec 11, 2020 3:06:13 GMT -5
glad you got it sealled off, i have never had any issues at all with the polini 360 i loved that i owned onenplate and a few diff. sizes of rubber boots, one for a cp23 and a few for 28pwk. interestng how the bottom of the rubber boot was not only smaller but had a slightly different shape on the one for a 23mm.
|
|
|
Post by captincvmn on Dec 11, 2020 6:25:56 GMT -5
I’m deducing daddy daycare didn’t destroy you.
|
|
|
Post by 90GTVert on Dec 11, 2020 19:55:18 GMT -5
I’m deducing daddy daycare didn’t destroy you. I'm still here anyway. Worked on the scoot till 2AM last night. Got almost 4 hours of sleep and back out there by 7:30 this morning. Just don't really know what's headed my way lately and I knew I wanted to be able to try to ride/tune Sat when it's ~60 so I put in time wherever I could. The good news is, the Lectron is on and I went for the 1st test ride earlier today. It's a PITA mounting the 30mm Lectron compared to the 25mm PHBL. The Polini 90 degree filter came in and it didn't really work for me either. The filter was so big that it ran into my side stand. Not a total deal breaker, but I'd be crushing the thing with my foot to use the side stand and maybe bumping it with my heel when riding. I used the 90 degree adapter from the Polini and mounted the UNI pod to that and it worked out better. I took an old cracked seat bucket and cut it up so the carb could fit. Kinda sucks because I'm hoping it doesn't collapse and toss me off. It's really cracked. Again, I didn't want to destroy a good seat bucket if the carb doesn't end up sticking around long. Had to cut the throttle cable's sheathing back a bunch to make it work. The throttle didn't want to return. The slide hangs up in the carb, which disappoints me for a ~$450 carb. I'd figure for that kind of cash, there would be no issue like that out of the box. I had a spring from a stock 1E40QMB carb and used that as a helper spring, over the Lectron spring, so it would return. It was hard to start. Actually started within a few kicks, but died. Then I kicked the heck out of it with choke on and off and different throttle positions. Once it fired up and warmed up and I adjusted the idle speed screw, it was pretty stable and no problem to restart. It loads up on throttle changes and runs roughly 500RPM low WOT, all with good cool CHTs. I think it probably needs the metering rod and the power jet leaned. I will probably start with a small adjustment to the metering rod tomorrow and see what that does. I've never even owned a power jet carb, let alone a metering rod deal like this, so I'm not exactly sure how much effect one can have on the other. Lectron's instructions seem to basically put the metering rod adjustment as low to 1/2 throttle and the power jet for the rest when under load. I would assume they must overlap some though. So after the first ride, I initially thought... that's not very impressive for a carb that often seems to be advertised as a bolt on that may need only simple minimal tuning. Then I realized that most of these carbs are sold to dirt bike riders with kits for popular bikes. It's much different selling them for scoots with unknown setups. Even with that said, it did do fine cruising around at any throttle position. It sputtered and didn't run as hard as it should, but it was in a nice safe state of tune for my setup with only adjusting the idle speed screw. I noticed that my power jet is a turn out more than any recommended settings from Lectron's 2T article and the metering rod in my carb isn't even listed in their 2T tuning info.
|
|
|
Post by repherence2 on Dec 11, 2020 21:37:41 GMT -5
In my experience with a fake OKO 26mm, i could see a dip in my CHT past 3/4 throttle, so i assumed the crossover point of my main and power jet was somewhere near the 3/4 throttle range.
I can understand why Lectron would have the crossover at 1/2 throttle especially if it has a metering valve for the power jet. Neat! Thank you for sharing that info. The remedy for that sputter is simply dailing in the power jet metering valve. Neat stuff!
|
|
|
Post by captincvmn on Dec 11, 2020 22:28:29 GMT -5
Carb cost more than my bike. Should set itself up and fix you breakfast in bed.
|
|
|
Post by aeroxbud on Dec 12, 2020 10:18:27 GMT -5
Carb cost more than my bike. Should set itself up and fix you breakfast in bed. Then Brent would have to buy something else to fiddle with. 😁
|
|
|
Post by 90GTVert on Dec 12, 2020 17:59:44 GMT -5
I've been messing with the carb all day. Saying I'm disappointed so far would be an understatement. From day 1 I've heard how desperately I NEED a bigger carb. I got rid of most of the bogging on quick throttle with the metering rod, by leaning it out. I think it may still need 1/4-1/2 turn to get the best throttle response every time, because I have had it sputter on occasion when getting into the throttle quickly. It feels quite responsive most of the time.
I can barely tell that the power jet does anything. I've adjusted it from 1/4 turn out (they say never run it all the way closed [lean]) to way out till it finally started to blubber WOT. Off the top of my head, I want to say that was something like 6 turns out when others talk about not needing to surpass 2-3 turns out.
No matter what I do, the last 1/8 throttle or so feels/sounds a little different. It reminds me of when the main jet is a little off in a more traditional setup. It's either a power jet thing or Lectron thing or maybe the metering rod still needs work. It has been that way the entire time though. My only other thought would be if the slide could pull up too far and it affected flow. I don't think it's that, but haven't looked because it's hard to get the boot on and off of the carb.
So far, I'd guess that at best it performs like it did with the tiny, old-fashioned, round slide, "junk" that I had on there before. Maybe there's more in it if it's all just right? I think it's more likely to be what I've thought the whole time... my old carb was fine. I think it may be able to get better gas mileage, because it doesn't really blubber part throttle. It does feel very smooth other than a spot here or there and the last 1/8 throttle. The idle hangs, but without that it blubbers trying to quickly get on the gas. It's only going to hang worse if I try leaning the metering rod more and the part throttle will only get more lean and worrying to me.
The biggest thing that I like is how it can be adjusted without even removing the seat bucket... that is, after the seat bucket was cut up to fit the big carb. Power jet screw is right up top and obviously the top comes off to access the metering rod. With the open frame, I can easily get to the idle speed screw. Those are the only adjustments that they recommend. The other thing that may make it worth keeping even if it can't outperform the 25mm PHBL is if it indeed runs well when weather changes without adjustment.
|
|
|
Post by islandscrub on Dec 13, 2020 0:13:45 GMT -5
Brent,
Did you soften the 360 rubber boot with hot water/heat as the instructions suggested? I have one I haven't put together yet, but I figure it would help a lot to get the boot in the groove all the way.
So a Lectron? What are the benefits over a regular old PWK?
|
|
|
Post by Lucass2T on Dec 13, 2020 3:41:14 GMT -5
I've been messing with the carb all day. Saying I'm disappointed so far would be an understatement. From day 1 I've heard how desperately I NEED a bigger carb. I got rid of most of the bogging on quick throttle with the metering rod, by leaning it out. I think it may still need 1/4-1/2 turn to get the best throttle response every time, because I have had it sputter on occasion when getting into the throttle quickly. It feels quite responsive most of the time. I can barely tell that the power jet does anything. I've adjusted it from 1/4 turn out (they say never run it all the way closed [lean]) to way out till it finally started to blubber WOT. Off the top of my head, I want to say that was something like 6 turns out when others talk about not needing to surpass 2-3 turns out. No matter what I do, the last 1/8 throttle or so feels/sounds a little different. It reminds me of when the main jet is a little off in a more traditional setup. It's either a power jet thing or Lectron thing or maybe the metering rod still needs work. It has been that way the entire time though. My only other thought would be if the slide could pull up too far and it affected flow. I don't think it's that, but haven't looked because it's hard to get the boot on and off of the carb. So far, I'd guess that at best it performs like it did with the tiny, old-fashioned, round slide, "junk" that I had on there before. Maybe there's more in it if it's all just right? I think it's more likely to be what I've thought the whole time... my old carb was fine. I think it may be able to get better gas mileage, because it doesn't really blubber part throttle. It does feel very smooth other than a spot here or there and the last 1/8 throttle. The idle hangs, but without that it blubbers trying to quickly get on the gas. It's only going to hang worse if I try leaning the metering rod more and the part throttle will only get more lean and worrying to me. The biggest thing that I like is how it can be adjusted without even removing the seat bucket... that is, after the seat bucket was cut up to fit the big carb. Power jet screw is right up top and obviously the top comes off to access the metering rod. With the open frame, I can easily get to the idle speed screw. Those are the only adjustments that they recommend. The other thing that may make it worth keeping even if it can't outperform the 25mm PHBL is if it indeed runs well when weather changes without adjustment. After reading this im not surprised. I've always felt so so about lectron carbs don't need tuning and such. And hoped I'd hear you say you've felt a power gain. It might be there? Would be nice to put it on a dyno and put some dellorto and lectron graphs next to each other.
|
|
|
Post by 90GTVert on Dec 13, 2020 9:15:56 GMT -5
Brent, Did you soften the 360 rubber boot with hot water/heat as the instructions suggested? I have one I haven't put together yet, but I figure it would help a lot to get the boot in the groove all the way. So a Lectron? What are the benefits over a regular old PWK? It was heated to make the install easier and has to be heated and wrestled to get the carb in. One thing that I can almost guarantee is that your wallet will be lighter so you may go quicker/faster if you carry it on your rides. The real benefit that I hope it has is not needed constant adjustments for air density changes. Especially with a pod filter, I've had to readjust standard carbs way more than I'd like for even small changes in weather on some setups. Elevation doesn't matter much to me, since I ride from about 0-200ft above sea level most of the time, but there are claims that it can deal with thousands of feet of elevation without retuning. I've seen a video where the claim is that ~40-100F temps should not require readjustment. That would be nice. I'm currently a bit lost on the operation of this thing. Not really lost, but my experience doesn't completely match other tuning info. So many vids and articles say that the metering rod tuning is basically for the first 1/2 throttle operation or simply say "bottom end". I think of bottom end more in terms of RPM, with 0-1/2 throttle obviously being direct throttle positions. Then of course the power jet must work from 1/2 to WOT or on the top end. It seems to me that the metering rod controls, or at least has influence higher than 1/2 throttle. Honestly, the power jet seems to do very little. I have been taking 1/2 turn adjustments, while some do 1/4, but I'm seeing very little difference. I wasn't even sure the power jet worked at all until I finally adjusted it out enough that it blubbered. "Oh, it does do something!" BTW, even blubbering rich, I could use 0-3/4 throttle fine. It was really noticeable 7/8-WOT. That's why I think the metering rod's influence on higher throttle openings may be understated. This could be application specific though. Pretty much every tuning article or vid that you find will be about geared bikes and I'd guess that there would, or at least could, be a difference in the way a CVT bike would experience load. Right now, it seems like you'd almost need a dyno to max out the power jet setting. That or do timed runs every time you make a change. Speaking of dyno... Would be nice to put it on a dyno and put some dellorto and lectron graphs next to each other. As usual, this probably isn't going to happen. I feel that timed acceleration runs and top speed tell enough of a story. If you're not tuning on a dyno, then it won't matter. You get what you get from your tuning process. That's probably not going to pull every fraction of a HP like dyno time could, but most of us can't afford a bunch of dyno time. I would venture a guess that if the Lectron does what it says, you could dyno a setup with changes across a wide range of temp and elevation and see that the Lectron would have the best HP on average. I would think that if both were tuned extensively on a dyno, then you probably won't see big gains from the Lectron in the conditions where tuning was done. In my specific case, it would be tough anyway. 25mm Dell with a round slide and a 25mm Polini intake and an airbox vs 30mm Lectron with a 30mm 360 Polini intake and a pod filter. If trying to sort out whether a Lectron is superior, it would be better to use a 30mm flat slide vs the 30mm Lectron or at least another carb that would fit the same intake and airbox. Jack Cecil, boostcrzy here, seemed to be looking for a Lectron donation in one of his recent vids. If he gets it, he has a dyno and I'd assume his RC-One with 28mm and pod filter will probably fit right in so it could be a good carb vs carb comparison. My understanding is that Lectron doesn't give out many carbs, so you'd probably have to pull a lot of views to get one. He also seems to work with ScooterTuning. Maybe they'd be willing, but I can tell you they aren't making a lot of money on each Lectron sale. Unless they cap it, I think a regular customer with a promo code could actually buy the Lectron cheaper than my "dealer" discount... plus I don't get free shipping on orders of any amount. I greatly appreciate the help that I do get, and don't normally mention much about what I pay out of respect for them, but definitely don't get the impression that I didn't pay a chunk of my own money to try the Lectron. I'm broke and my videos normally don't make enough to cover much more than gas/oil money so I had to have a lot of hope for the big Lectron to be willing to try it and I went back and forth with the idea for quite a while. Even more reason not to add a dyno bill for me. On the dyno topic, I never really got anywhere with the DIY notion. Basically came to the conclusion that giant, heavy, precision machined/balanced chunks of metal are very expensive unless you have the right connections. Never got beyond that point to look into the rest of the hardware/software.
|
|
|
Post by 90GTVert on Dec 13, 2020 15:45:48 GMT -5
As usual, I'm failing in spectacular fashion...
First, I find that the "helper spring" that I installed in the carb so it would return is limiting travel. I was only getting about 3/4 throttle. I was actually checking to see if the throttle was opening too far. lol
Without that spring, the throttle wouldn't return or not well. I checked over the cable and lubed it. Nope. I replaced the throttle with a new one that was sitting around and made an aluminum spacer, ~1/8" thick to sit under the spring in the slide. That was all I could add for clearance issues with the carb top and because the spring would coil bind beyond there anyway. That was enough that it at least returned, albeit slowly. It really needs a stiffer spring, but good enough for now.
I went for a ride to see if I'd suddenly be hitting 80MPH with the throttle working properly. No luck there. Pretty similar, though RPM was a little better. I start pulling over and adjusting the power jet repeatedly, till it breaks up. Then I backed it out more and more.
I noticed that RPM was dropping slightly, about 100RPM vs earlier. I also noticed that my kick start was starting to make contact with the variator enough to jingle when I stopped. Decided to head toward home while continuing testing instead of going farther away as planned. Good thing I did, because the engine died on one of the next stops from contact and then the kicker stripped. Came home in the truck.
When I unloaded, I realized there's a small amount of coolant in my reservoir. In the past, I only see that if I put coolant in there (usually don't, just using it for an expansion tank) or if there's a failure of a head seal of some sort. I opened the cap and what's in there is dark and didn't smell very good, so I'm assuming I am pressuring the cooling system and combustion junk is making it's way in.
Fail after fail after fail. Plus, I think I need to readjust the metering rod now. It's stumbling on launch again, though who knows with a potential sealing issue. ...And tomorrow it goes back to highs in the 40s instead of 60s.
|
|
|
Post by captincvmn on Dec 13, 2020 17:26:59 GMT -5
My condolences. Thank you for chronicling it for us none the less. I made a ride of 6 miles on Saturday as the fog lifted here in York PA. Returned along the same route half hour later in my work truck to see 30+ wild turkeys flying across the road. It was awesome.
|
|
pewpew
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 254
|
Post by pewpew on Dec 13, 2020 17:49:59 GMT -5
As usual, I'm failing in spectacular fashion... First, I find that the "helper spring" that I installed in the carb so it would return is limiting travel. I was only getting about 3/4 throttle. I was actually checking to see if the throttle was opening too far. lol Without that spring, the throttle wouldn't return or not well. I checked over the cable and lubed it. Nope. I replaced the throttle with a new one that was sitting around and made an aluminum spacer, ~1/8" thick to sit under the spring in the slide. That was all I could add for clearance issues with the carb top and because the spring would coil bind beyond there anyway. That was enough that it at least returned, albeit slowly. It really needs a stiffer spring, but good enough for now. I went for a ride to see if I'd suddenly be hitting 80MPH with the throttle working properly. No luck there. Pretty similar, though RPM was a little better. I start pulling over and adjusting the power jet repeatedly, till it breaks up. Then I backed it out more and more. I noticed that RPM was dropping slightly, about 100RPM vs earlier. I also noticed that my kick start was starting to make contact with the variator enough to jingle when I stopped. Decided to head toward home while continuing testing instead of going farther away as planned. Good thing I did, because the engine died on one of the next stops from contact and then the kicker stripped. Came home in the truck. When I unloaded, I realized there's a small amount of coolant in my reservoir. In the past, I only see that if I put coolant in there (usually don't, just using it for an expansion tank) or if there's a failure of a head seal of some sort. I opened the cap and what's in there is dark and didn't smell very good, so I'm assuming I am pressuring the cooling system and combustion junk is making it's way in. Fail after fail after fail. Plus, I think I need to readjust the metering rod now. It's stumbling on launch again, though who knows with a potential sealing issue. ...And tomorrow it goes back to highs in the 40s instead of 60s. Have you tried a different throttle cable, like the stage6 one? Its meant for the high end carbs and works fine with mine. Have you tried it without the 90 degree bend on top of the carb? I once used that and it made the throttle feel horrible.
|
|
|
Post by jloi on Dec 13, 2020 19:18:44 GMT -5
one thing is certain . you'll get it or it can't be got . especially with the help of all the other guys' .
|
|
|
Post by 90GTVert on Dec 13, 2020 23:23:17 GMT -5
Have you tried a different throttle cable, like the stage6 one? Its meant for the high end carbs and works fine with mine. Have you tried it without the 90 degree bend on top of the carb? I once used that and it made the throttle feel horrible. Just the aftermarket cable that I've been using with 2 built in adjusters. Works fine with the other carb. Without the 90 degree adapter, it would be kind of tough to actually use the underseat area. When I was researching the Lectron before buying, I read that stiffer springs are sometimes required and to contact Lectron to buy them. If you ask me, when you charge $450 and up for a carb, you could just put the stiff $2 spring in there just in case once it's known to be an issue on some setups. Heck, add $2 into the cost. At that point it doesn't make or break anyone buying the carb. I think I said it before, but the slide doesn't move as freely as I think it should in the carb when nothing at all is attached to it. I had scuff marks on it after the first quick warm up ride.
|
|