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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 27, 2024 6:46:27 GMT -5
Just got an email to notify me that my Malossi order (piston) is now ready to ship. Tracking agrees that it's not yet in the hands of the shipper. Order placed on 6/14/24 and now ready to ship on 6/27/24, a day shy of 2 weeks.
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tysta
Scoot Member
Posts: 79
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Post by tysta on Jun 28, 2024 0:19:14 GMT -5
Polished speeds up the air flow around the Polished surface faster than the middle where the fuel is, so faster air on the edges is not pulling the fuel with it, rougher creates more turbulence and pulls fuel with it. Is basically the science. Air goes path of least resistance. Right, which is the explanation to the wet vs dry surface difference. Doesn't tell me why I'd want the filter side rough, but maybe I'm missing something or maybe I'm just giving 1 person from the internet more merit than I should. His points seemed valid to me, aside from that one, so I'm trying to explore the idea. Maybe I'll learn something or maybe I already knew what I needed? Also seems to go against the idea of adding roughness if you believe in the air straighteners and such that some install, though those have the function of dividers as well. I did find this along the way when I was searching yesterday. The whole page may be interesting. From : groupk.com/index.php/high-performance-pwc-carburetion/"A Note About Fuel Atomization – Many of the aftermarket carb makers go to great lengths to promote the exceptional fuel atomization abilities of their carbs. The “real” priority here is the need to deliver well-atomized and well vaporized mixture “into the combustion chamber”, not the crankcase. In truth, the mixture being admitted into the crankcases (no matter how well atomized it is) goes through a separation process before making it’s trip to the combustion chamber. High-speed internal photography of engines in operation has revealed that the spinning crankshaft tends to throw the heavier fuel to the outside of the crankcase, while the lighter weight air remains within the center area of the crank case. The fuel in the crankcase is in a constant state of being atomized by being thrown off the outside of the flywheels (in the same way that water spirally sprays off a road tire). This process, which represents the biggest percentage of fuel atomization and vaporization, is performed in the crankcase and transfer port passageways…not in the carburetor.
The inside of the crankcase of a high output two stroke is best described as a miniature hurricane of biblical intensity. The intense turbulence of this hurricane does a great deal to atomize the fuel being delivered for the next cycle. The walls of the transfer passages can further enhance atomization if their surface finish is rough enough to disperse any “un-atomized” fuel droplets that “make contact” on their high-speed trip to the combustion chamber. This is why Group K porting includes a mild “rough-finish” on the walls of the transfer passages…(instead of polishing). This helps to insure that all fuels induced into the crankcase, by the carb, will experience significant atomization during it’s millisecond whirlwind journey to the combustion chamber.
For sure, it helps matters slightly if the fuel metering apparatus of a carburetor can assist in atomization, however (on a 2 stroke pwc engine) the impact of that help has more to do with fuel economy/efficiency than sheer power output. The best example of this point, is the MRD mechanical fuel injection system. These systems perform virtually no atomization at all, yet still yield very good single-point full-throttle power. The lack of atomization of the mechanical fuel injection systems does contribute to a very significant wasting of fuel. But the MRD’s, nearly non-existent, atomization does not have a measurable cost in the area of lost power."Most people have this 'brilliant" ideas just because it makes sense inside their brain doesn't mean they are right. Some of the best 2T ever made they also have carbs made specifically for them. And none of them have one side rough and the other smooth or what ever. For the ones who believe in this weird miths I want to see their dyno prove of such. I seen some testing done and I also done some testing as well, on the dyno and flow bench also testing the flow speed with different temperature also with and without fuel. If the over all dimensions remains the same there's benefits in having the carb close to a mirror finish like a very fine machining finish on both sides of the carb Like the best carbs out there is this finish it's visible. But the difference it's so minimal ufff Way bigger gains when the entire intake trap is perfectly matched without any depression or edges. |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 28, 2024 5:56:06 GMT -5
Well, a few people replied on the ESE thread... and clowned me. Said things like, and add golf ball dimples too, cut some turbo grooves in it, buy a different power band. Felt like I just bought my first scooter and was asking which one of Jeremy Vinup's miracle products I should buy first to make it go 100. So, I made a fool of myself I guess, but I'll be the dummy if I can learn something from it and at least I can put the idea to rest for sure.
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 28, 2024 6:18:12 GMT -5
Here’s the bracket that I made for the detonation gauge. Bolts on under the Trail Tech and uses double sided tape to mount the box.   It’s shielded wiring, but the pigtail with the connector is standard wiring. I got in touch with my friend because I was considering buying a connector kit so I could put terminals directly on the shielded wire instead or try to wrap it in copper wire but he said a few inches of the pigtail isn’t going to make a difference.  Ferrite core installed as well.   Here’s a quick test, tapping the sensor. |
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Post by 190mech on Jun 28, 2024 6:58:12 GMT -5
After reading the replies over at KiwiBiker, I guess they are saying " If it aint broke, dont fix it".
Please dont take their comments serious, those folks drink some strong ale over there!
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 28, 2024 8:11:24 GMT -5
After reading the replies over at KiwiBiker, I guess they are saying " If it aint broke, dont fix it". Please dont take their comments serious, those folks drink some strong ale over there! While I was out getting a scoot tag, Frits Overmars joined in and posted a pic of a power band so that's an honor in a sense. LOL I have posted a reply, but being my 2nd post it still requires approval. I pretty much only post here, so it's weird being new. If they think I'm dumb now, just wait till they get to know me. 🤣 |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 28, 2024 11:59:03 GMT -5
**%# it. At least this way it’ll be pretty even if it’s slow and blown up.   Now everyone can make fun of me for going too far the other way. 😁 |
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Post by billwill on Jun 28, 2024 15:32:49 GMT -5
**%# it. At least this way it’ll be pretty even if it’s slow and blown up. Now everyone can make fun of me for going too far the other way. 😁 LOLLL I could line my own beard up in the reflection of that thing. I'm enjoying following this and am looking forward to the results. Don't let the haters grind you down - you have the right attitude. |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jun 28, 2024 15:36:50 GMT -5
Don't let the haters grind you down - you have the right attitude. I'm good. I'm just tired of the stuff this carb has put me through, paired with a local that constantly has something he wants me to help him with lately (today a wiring issue on a scoot he got cheap and someone cut the ignition out of and he wants to come over so I can look at it) and general life and then I go and make myself feel stupid for trying to explore an idea by someone that otherwise made sense. The folks at KiwiBiker seem fine. They actually started posting useful links for general reading, because they can tell this is the first time I've tried to tune anything. LOL I'm mostly down because this shouldn't be that hard, and it isn't for anyone else. |
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Post by billwill on Jun 28, 2024 16:20:55 GMT -5
Chin up brother!
You’ve done more than tons for the whole scene and the people here and people know it.
If it makes you feel any better, I fought with a few issues like this as well, and one of them that I was banging my head against the wall with for the better part of two months turned out to be a plug gapping issue. Then another turned out to be the fact that I was running a larger circumference wheel, and that made gearing ever so slightly different than other bikes like mine. All that said and I’m still dealing with timing and jetting issues where the bike runs hotter than it should despite more changes and tuning.
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tysta
Scoot Member
Posts: 79
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Post by tysta on Jul 2, 2024 1:00:37 GMT -5
yap dont let the clowns put you down!
i just have to say dont get your head warped around simple stuff go to the very basic stuff and start there with very simple stuff.
and again if you need help reach out to me.
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sinfull
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 413
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Post by sinfull on Jul 2, 2024 3:17:24 GMT -5
Yeah, don't get down brother, it took forever for me to finally figure out the gy6 and actually get a consistent bike when almost everything you read is wrong. And myth with no actual proof. At least you have the knowledge and experience of the 2 stroke vs the gy6 meth rockets.
Btw, love the buy a different power band response 😆
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Post by xtremrox on Jul 2, 2024 19:34:38 GMT -5
I checked the carb to intake match and it wasn't good. Can't believe I went over the intake to reed block area when I got the intake and never even looked at this. Roughly 2mm mismatch.
 Marked with a paint marker and then I used a Dremel drum sander and Scotch Brite pads to finish.  I moved on to the air filter adapter/mini-bell-mouth. The outer edge is flat and abrupt. There is a ledge in the air filter that it would probably work well with, but the carb can't go that far in to meet up with it.  I need the filter to have room to mount, so I can't cut it way back. I did stick it in the lathe and cut it back and chamfer it slightly. I used 120, 220, 320 and then a sort of worn Scotch Brite green pad to round the chamfers. I also smoothed out the adapter a bit. I could feel a sort of ramp in the angle so I just tried to make it more constant. The finish is pretty smooth. Easy enough to change surface finish from here if desired.   The engine side is quite smooth. Didn't touch it yet. 
No reply about the finish from xtremrox, so I tried searching. Didn't find much. Just what I've always seen where many polish the air filter side. I decided to try to ask known pros and posted in the ESE Works thread on KiwiBiker. First post, so I don't know if they'll even approve it there. Worth a try. Ohh my days those intakes are just more badly matched every year. The roughed intake side is to promote turbulance in the intake track, as sinfull said. Many carbs are left with quite a surface finish for this reason. The engine side is wet flow so thats why tha needs roughing, (now when i think about it a very ligth grind whit a carbide bit would be better than sand paper) |
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Post by xtremrox on Jul 2, 2024 19:37:18 GMT -5
Well, a few people replied on the ESE thread... and clowned me. Said things like, and add golf ball dimples too, cut some turbo grooves in it, buy a different power band. Felt like I just bought my first scooter and was asking which one of Jeremy Vinup's miracle products I should buy first to make it go 100. So, I made a fool of myself I guess, but I'll be the dummy if I can learn something from it and at least I can put the idea to rest for sure. . Its honestly quite sad that if someone has found gain in something by trial and error someone with experience will come and clown them, how did those guys find they recipes😸 |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jul 2, 2024 23:43:43 GMT -5
I've been spending a bunch of time testing and looking over carb stuff. First, the clear bowl is a disappointment. The inner edges by the o-ring are melting with exposure to fuel. The one that I bought first, from the exact same amazon link, didn't deform much at all. This one already should be replaced. I had a spare, but it's disappointing to see a good product change overnight. Someone made a few extra pennies though.  Pretty sure I found why the 210 main jet acts totally different (richer) than the jets near it. These are Keihin jets, all ordered at the same time. The 210 has a large opening in the end. The orifice through was checked in the past and seems to be on par somewhere between 205 and 215. It's just the opening that's bigger than every other jet I bought, Keihin or Stage6. Number stamp is on the side vs top like the others. Stamping size doesn't match on any of them.  I made up a little test rig for checking fuel flow through the carb. Drilled a 1/2" hole in the bottom of the fuel distorted bowl and did multiple 30 second tests. I checked the VHST and a 28mm PHBH just as some reference. Fuel through PWK : 410ml/min, ~2.8mm float needle seat hole Fuel through VHST : 520ml/min, 3.1-3.2mm float needle seat hole Fuel through PHBH : 420ml/min, ~1.9mm float needle seat hole Fuel through hoses and filter without a carburetor : 870ml/min  Someone that saw my posts on the KiwiBiker forum was kind enough to email me a French language vid showing PWK mods for better fueling (linked below). I drilled out the cap covering it and then drilled the fuel passage headed to the needle area to 4mm. The holes around the float were enlarged to 2.5mm and the vent holes were done with a 3/32" bit. The fuel passage was sealed back off to the outside by tapping to M5x0.8 and installing a set screw with a very small amount of JB Weld on the threads to be sure it seals. The float needle chamber was deburred from drilling and polished with a Q-tip and aluminum polish. youtu.be/EFXFvepG59c?si=VlGWV0ExmHVGAEVd I also removed the float stop in the bowl. It lets the float open just a tiny bit more.  
I rechecked fuel flow and it went up to 560ml/min. That's almost a 37% increase! I was asked about stinger size, so I checked the MHR 94cc pipe for the RC-One and the Stage6 R/T 100. The Malossi pipe is around 19mm. O'Verse measured his at 20The S6 pipe is 22mm, but using a 20mm removable reducer ATM.  Here are 20, 30 and 40 hole Polini atomizers. It's odd that the 20 and 40 have small holes and the 30 has large holes.  I searched for info about atomizers, but it was contradictory in some cases and left me uncertain overall. I thought about it and assume that holes open to fuel will richen the mixture some and holes open to air will lean it out a little. If that's the case, I wondered how many holes were bathed in fuel. I marked the carb where holes should be, height-wise. All of the atomizers match up, having 5 holes per column, just different amounts of rows.  After more testing, I think maybe 1 atomizer hole is in fuel. That's with the carb straight up. I would think if fuel drains at all, then the fuel bathed hole become another air entry and leans out to some degree. If that's the case, I still don't know if I want 20 small holes or 30 large ones. I didn't notice any obvious difference when I broke the original 30 hole and swapped in a 20. Some like to say no holes on a 2T atomizer. The piston came yesterday. The engine is together now, waiting to do a leak test tomorrow after giving the sealant setup time. I really gotta figure out what my attempted safe setup is gonna be now that I have the last AA piston. Intended to do a little more researching or checking, but one of the guys I ride with brought a Honda Dio up with a butchered wiring harness. Had no spark. The engine wasn't even grounded, even though it was in the scoot and had the ground wire to the electric starter. Wound up running a ground cable for him from engine to frame, another ground wire to the coil that had no ground on it's wire, and giving him a temp shutoff switch since someone cut out the ignition switch. The harness is still a mess, but at least it makes spark. I did check some functions through the harness, which were OK. There's a jumper wire somewhere though, because it's hot all of the time. There is nothing to turn power on and off to accessories from the battery. Also added a fuse, because someone cut the fuse holder out and twisted the wires together. Lots of twisted connections on that scoot and I told him any of them could ground out or touch something they shouldn't and cause problems. I'd junk it and find a new harness if possible. He's got a GY6 too that just lost spark, so guess what I'll be working on tomorrow night. |
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