Triton # 2 (T2) 49cc to 110cc & Nearly Everywhere In Between

[90GTVert]

Having a 4T and a eBay 70 keep up off the line annoyed me. Don't get me wrong, I don't really care if I win or lose. I enjoy it. I clearly have a power advantage (though large weight disadvantage) over all of the scoots I've been around aside from Ryan's. I just won't give it hell and risk it coming up hard. The guys with less power are at a bit of an advantage there. They may be able to pop them up, but they aren't pulling hard enough to want to pull up once they're in the throttle. I hit a bump and the front's off the ground again or sometimes it can creep up. I'm on the safe side of stupid. If I feel it coming up, I get out and I try to go easy enough leaving that it doesn't come up at all. I'm not looking to have to make a save. The other guys rip it and see what happens. I think they're happy if it does wheelie leaving.

I figured I'd see if I could improve my launch without a huge amount of effort. Lowering the center of gravity should make it less wheelie prone, so I installed a new rear shock 2.5" shorter and spacers on the damper rods up front to drop 1.25" there. T2 has been jacked up in the back for a long time so it leveled it more. I've got pics on the big camera so I'll post those whenever I bring it in.

The ride is not bad. Somewhat similar. I could bottom out the rear on a hard bump I'm sure, but not the average ride. I would like a little stiffer shock back there, but it's hard enough to find the height you want sometimes and most are not rated in anyway aside from mentioning "performance", "racing" or "adjustable".

I can now flat foot it on the rear of the seat (where I sit when I'm just riding around). Before I could barely flat foot it on the front of the seat and I'm 6'2". I also have a shorter handlebar riser because I figured if I lean over more it reduces drag and keeps more weight on the front. I don't think I'm doing that though. That would put my knees closer to the bars and riding T1 around for a bit that I am leaned over more on bothers my back. I think it may be better to keep this thing comfortable and easier to ride.

I did 9.68, 9.65 and 9.65 back to back. My best previous run was 9.66 and I've never done 9.6X back to back. 0-60s just over 7. Not matching bests there, but I did have 15-20MPH cross winds. The real story I thought would be in the 60ft. I didn't do much better there. Best of 2.15, but I did manage more consistent 2.1X. I was 20-25MPH and 1/4-1/2 throttle pulled the front up so it's not like it quit power wheelieing. I think it makes some difference off the line though. I think I could give it more. I know it sounds dumb because we're not talking about 1.60 60fts here, but it takes more balls than I had on me today to get into it harder off the line. It's all fun till the scoot is going down the road without me.

I was talking to hypervertical and he really thinks I should try strapping the front down to take up the slack till it just takes my weight. That way you don't get the slide hammer sort of effect when the front sag is taken up on launch and makes it want to wheelie. I've ordered some stuff to try that out. Not sure I feel comfortable just riding around that way. If it works really well, I may have to do it one night when I'm out with the other scoots though... at least long enough to blow a few proverbial doors off. One step at a time though. If anyone happens to tie theirs down for drag racing, please post any pics and info.

[90GTVert]

I got a Motoforce 245mm shock from ScooterTuning.Ca. It was very inexpensive, and actually the one I wanted from the start but it was out of stock months ago when I got the other.




It's just a little stiffer, but not so close to coil bind like the other one. I like it better. If you're not really heavy like me, either would probably work well.



Then I decided I was gonna do it. WOT off the line. And I did! I felt like I was out there breaking records. It felt so quick to me. I was thinking I finally did under 9.6X. Came home and looked at the dragy. Slower than before. WHAT? This is why we need numbers and not butt dyno results.

Sometimes it felt like something slipped, sometimes it felt like it broke up from quick throttle and once it really felt like a spun the tire. I wanted to try it up a little incline to see how it responded and something slipped bad off the line. Way worse then other runs. There was a single 2-3" wide black mark about 6' long right around where I took off. I still don't believe it was me though.

I had richened the idle mix before the test runs, so I put it back. That felt better, but still slow. I've done a bunch of hits and the best I've done are 2.18 and 2.20 60ft and many are 2.3 and even up to 2.5. I've let out at times because it feels like it's pulling too hard. I had it get the wheel light and just off the ground with me hanging over the front about 100ft out. Still slow. It's such a clash of feeling vs time.

I went home and wound up riding through 4-6" of brackish water on a back road that never used to flood but has been for the last year or so. I wanted to rinse it off when I got home and oil the exhaust and something under the CVT cover is making a clunking noise when pushed.

My next step was going to be to check the CVT anyway. My thought is that it's time to go up one in stiffness of the contra spring. Then I'll have to go through roller tuning again to get RPM back down. Normally I think shimming when it slips off the line, but if I change shimming it also changes how it shifts which changes RPM spread during acceleration runs. I think it's doing alright there, so my guess is that it would be better to put more spring pressure on the belt and try to keep it from slipping that way. That said, if I pull it apart and the clutch shows obvious signs of slip then I may revise that plan.

Then I wonder if I ever do get it to hold for quicker 60fts... will I still be willing to hang on or will it try to come up. It's always something when you wanna be fast(ish).

I rode by a friend's house while out doing runs and stopped to talk. Challenged him to take his Vulcan 1500 out and race me. He said no thanks. 🙁

[90GTVert]

I forgot to upload the before and after promised...

[90GTVert]

I watched some acceleration videos. Most of them look and sound fine. I was hoping they'd provide more of a clue or I'd at least hear RPM indicating slip. I copied most of the runs into my spreadsheet. Left some out because I did multiple shorter hits. Top results are last dragy runs with everything the way it is now, but suspension the way it was for years. Lowered rear gets quicker. Lowered both gets even quicker. WOT launches gets slower.

Labels aren't shown so L to R : 0-30, 0-40, 0-50, 0-60, 60ft, 330ft, 660ft.


I do think my main jet is a little rich because I'm not seeing high enough EGT for normal bests, but it suddenly got worse with quick WOT and I don't think that's why.





Off-Topic, but while I'm here... Since I posted about Bikefest. Ocean City is now debating whether they want to have Bikefest again. A drunk dude left a bar on his bike Friday night and hit a 16 year old pedestrian in a crosswalk at high speed. The area is 35MPH IIRC and some have said he was doing at least double that. The 16 year old is in bad shape, still in the hospital in critical condition. The biker then managed to run on the bike and was caught not far away.

Now some people are in an uproar about accidents surrounding bike week. There are always multiple bad crashes all over the area, but there are also TONS of motorcycles around that aren't normally here. I think the majority are highway crashes and intersections and stuff like that... basically just what I'd sort of expect with lots of bikes around. Bikefest brings in a lot of revenue off season though. Now many are pushing for a Special Event Zone like the car shows where they have much more authority to impound and drastically increase penalties for any vehicle related violations. I'd bet money that's all they do. They want the revenue. IF they really cared about public safety as they claim, they'd realize that all summer long drunks leaving bars and clubs that make a fortune cause problems. That's big business though. Easier to blame bikes and cars for all of their problems. Cops have hit and killed pedestrians in the past while speeding, but no big fuss about that. Pedestrians weren't doing what they were supposed to and so on.

So if they pass the legislation to make it a Special Event Zone (count on it) then next year's bike week will be very heavily policed. The strip will be littered with flashing lights all weekend with huge fines and points and lots of impounds. Meanwhile, people will still be leaving bars drunk on motorcycles.

[Timmer]

Sept 21, 2024 19:40:37 GMT -5 90GTVert said:

This is why we need numbers and not butt dyno results.

I agree, but the butt dyno also measures fun, numbers are just statistics

Sept 22, 2024 7:47:29 GMT -5 90GTVert said:

So if they pass the legislation to make it a Special Event Zone (count on it) then next year's bike week will be very heavily policed. The strip will be littered with flashing lights all weekend with huge fines and points and lots of impounds. Meanwhile, people will still be leaving bars drunk on motorcycles.

Hmmm, special event zone is still better than no bike fest i’d say. Might keep the locals that are in uproar at ease, bike fest might still continue, and the ones that are making a fuss might twink twice before goofing around. Will it be the same? Probably not entirely, but no bike fest sounds pretty bad too…

[aeroxbud]

Yes any event is better than nothing.
We had a really great bike festival at a local town to me. They would shut the high street on a Saturday. Hundreds of bikes. Live music. It was a really great sociable event.
The locals didn't like it, so it was shut down about 6 years ago.
All the local restaurants, take away, and pubs were packed. Probably made more in that one day than any other week.

[90GTVert]

I wound up putting a 36kg Polini contra spring in, paired with heavier sliders and also added one weight to each of the MKII clutch shoes. I dialed in more tension on the clutch springs as well and tried some shimming adjustment.

I wouldn’t call it done, but I’m gonna call it good enough for the car show. I broke basically all of my previous bests on one run. I did have a tailwind and any other run was over a tenth off, but the I’ll take it. Prev best 0-60 was 6.90 and 1/8 mile was 9.65. I wanted to just see a 9.5 one day so I was stoked to see that run. Maybe with more fine tuning and actually playing with the ignition timing (I’ve only loaded what I hoped wouldn’t blow up and not fiddled since it hasn’t) I can get near this on a regular basis. As always, I know it looks slow to some still but remember that this is at least 550lb of rider and scooter. I carry tools that fill the whole underseat area as well during runs.

[zekefab]

What’s your ideal egt while riding? And at full beans / acceleration?
I know every bike and location of probe will be slightly different.

[90GTVert]

Oct 9, 2024 2:47:56 GMT -5 zekefab said:

What’s your ideal egt while riding? And at full beans / acceleration?
I know every bike and location of probe will be slightly different.

Most of the time I'm using EGT for acceleration tests and tuning. In that case, I tend to have the best results when EGT is around 1180-1220F at 60MPH during an acceleration pass. That's very specific to me though, I'd think, because the time it takes to 60 and the time it takes for the sensor to heat up changes that on top of all of those other variables.

I like keeping EGT low if I can, like 1250 max would be nice, but higher EGTs aren't out of the question if it runs strong. Around 1300 I'm nervous, but I've seen it do 1400 and not melt... but I've also seen it fail way before there. I really don't run it up to high speeds enough to see where it levels out. I tend to go up to about 70 during an acceleration run and then most of the time I'm cruising anywhere from 25-30MPH in town or maybe up to 55-60 on open roads but a lot of time I'll ride the shoulder (what scoots are supposed to do here) and just do 35-40 in 50 zones.

The main thing with getting around/cruise EGT is to keep it cooler than those heavy throttle EGTs for me. At idle it won't even register on the gauge a lot of times and very slow cruise may be 700 and then progresses up over 1000 with more throttle and higher speed. I don't cruise that fast and don't like to keep it very near those max numbers while cruising.

[zekefab]

Thank you. I mentioned previously that I follow this build because I have the same engine in a bugeye zuma. I bought a Chinese Dellorto jet kit and used a 155 (150 was base setting) knowing I needed to tune. Long story longer I just barely melted a piston in the first 100 miles of break in. egt was 1300’s. .
New top end fitted, I ordered genuine jets and come to find out the 155 was actually smaller than the genuine 150 🤦🏻‍♂️. So this time around I’m running it richer and bringing it down. Had 165, too big. Came down to 160 and egts are better… 400-780 cruising /part throttle to full throttle . it feels like it’s fouling out at 75-80 . It just cuts and won’t ignite till I kick it and clear it out for a minute . I don’t think it’s the carb bowl running dry because egts don’t get high from going lean but I will try the genuine 155 next and go from there. thank you !

[90GTVert]

Oct 9, 2024 7:53:45 GMT -5 zekefab said:

Thank you. I mentioned previously that I follow this build because I have the same engine in a bugeye zuma. I bought a Chinese Dellorto jet kit and used a 155 (150 was base setting) knowing I needed to tune. Long story longer I just barely melted a piston in the first 100 miles of break in. egt was 1300’s. .
New top end fitted, I ordered genuine jets and come to find out the 155 was actually smaller than the genuine 150 🤦🏻‍♂️. So this time around I’m running it richer and bringing it down. Had 165, too big. Came down to 160 and egts are better… 400-780 cruising /part throttle to full throttle . it feels like it’s fouling out at 75-80 . It just cuts and won’t ignite till I kick it and clear it out for a minute . I don’t think it’s the carb bowl running dry because egts don’t get high from going lean but I will try the genuine 155 next and go from there. thank you !

If it’s so rich that it dies at 75-80MPH, I’d think you should notice it acting different beforehand. Something should feel or sound off. Either that or I’d figure it would be immediate, like a way off spot in the throttle. It’s best to try to figure out when it happens in the throttle rather than speed because that would likely tell you more about what you may need to change.

I also learned the Chinese jet lesson the hard way. I always suggest to get a set of big name jets and try to get all jets from that same brand. Either that or you’re crossing your fingers unless you do flow tests to figure out what all jets actually do.

[90GTVert]

I mentioned it in T1's build thread already, but I'm hoping to build a second RC-One based engine. This MHR 94cc would likely wind up being swapped into T1 to replace the TPR 86cc Minarelli clone.

What I know about a new setup is that I'd want it to be 100cc. Those are all, or at least mostly, a 47mm stroke crank with a 100mm conrod and a 14mm wrist pin. I plan to get the cheapest crank made for it that meets that criteria, which appears to be the Stage6 crank. It looks like going with a Stage6 crank would save $150-$200 vs the more expensive options, but I don't like that Stage6 and 2FAST appear to use fully splined cranks on the CVT side where Malossi and 8.1 use splines for the outer bits to engage with and then the rest of the shaft is smooth. I think the smooth shaft is a better setup for this high end stuff. The crank that's in T1 now is missing splines in one spot from a failure so it's got a modified ramp plate with a star washer welded to it so the splines engage elsewhere. Maybe it's generally not an issue. Unfortunately I don't know that I want to go $150-$200 higher just to have the smooth style.

I also noticed that weight and diameter varies with cranks of the same specs otherwise. For example, the Stage6 crank is listed as 79mm diameter crank webs and the 8.1 crank is listed as 81mm diameter webs. I'd prefer the smaller one so it's that much less to cut out of the crankcases, though Stage 6 does require the area that will align with the conrod to be cut to a larger diameter than the rest of the case so maybe it doesn't really matter at that point since the case is probably only as strong as the weakest section there.


The other big question for me is which cylinder kit I want to go with. I definitely want more power. That's the point. Here are the manufacturer numbers I've seen/heard. Anyone that has more info on manufacturer claims or actual dyno comparisons for other FL100 options, please share! I don't plan to port it or have it ported, so I'm most interested in out of the box.

Malossi MHR 94cc : 31HP (current setup)
Malossi MHR 100cc : 32HP
Stage6 R/T 100cc : 37HP
8.1 R-18 100cc : 43HP

I'm assuming 2FAST is likely somewhere between 8.1 and S6. I saw a quick dyno vid of a 2FAST 100 with Roost exhaust at 37.4HP from a tuner on facebook. Of course I have no idea how accurate any of the manufacturer figures are.hypervertical told be about the 8.1 and the others that I listed can be found online easily.


I'll have to figure out a carb as well, because any of these are requiring 30-34mm carbs, with I believe most wanting 34mm. I'm not planning on putting my 34mm PWK back on! Current thought is to see what Malossi's carb kit for their 100cc looks like or to just find a different round or oval slide carb. So far I've used 2 flat slides on high rev engines (Lectron and Polini PWK). One wound up with a year of destroying pistons and cylinders and no resolution as to why it wouldn't behave and the other ate multiple pistons because it never worked at part throttle even with the manufacturer's help and advice with their best answer being maybe the carb is too big for the engine or it needs more powerjets installed to work at part throttle.


I'm in a bit of a battle with myself as well, because part of me wants all of the HP I can bolt on basically. Two things hold me back though, not counting cash.

1) I'm riding T2 through town yesterday with the wheel coming up at 1/4-1/2 throttle when I'm getting going quickly or it's doing power wheelies from the 25MPH speed limit with more throttle and I'm thinking... do I want this thing to be more ridiculous and unpredictable than this? One time it may just take off from 25MPH and the next time I may have to let out before I even get the throttle twisted around much because I'm not comfortable with the wheel up that much. If it actually made nearly 1.5 times the power with the best stuff... 😵

2) Reliability. The RC-One's MHR 94cc is impressively reliable for what it is. I've sure went through a lot of pistons, but something weird was going on with that PWK and my engine that I may never figure out. With Malossi's DellOrto carb kit, it has been mostly reliable. Stage6 claims that their kit maintains reliability. I don't even know if that's true, because you're always going to stress stuff more with more power and more RPM. I really wonder what the top end of the kits are like to ride and for reliability. I actually ride mine, not just drag race it or dyno it. I need it to be fine if I spend hours messing around at car shows (lots of low throttle and idle with plenty of short bursts of throttle) or taking rides on back roads.

Some time ago Jack Cecil told me that he wouldn't recommend trying to ride something like his 2FAST 70 around because it's so touchy and aggressive. The 94cc RC-One is no slouch though, and the TPR 86cc is super rev happy beyond the RC-1 even because it lacks the grunt to go without high revs. I'm totally fine riding those around.


This whole thing is probably a dumb idea, but if nothing else I really like the RC-One platform and would love to have 2 scoots using it. TBH one of my biggest motivations is catching bikes off guard at lights. Looking back to see a guy on a Harley grabbing all of the throttle with a look on his face clearly illustrating that he can't understand why a scooter just pulled out on him and why he's not gaining on it immediately is fantastic. I live for that sort of stuff. HP takes on a bigger role and they're catching me by 50-60MPH if we stay in it though. If I could leave them even harder... LOL The other thing is of course that obsession with numbers. You play with a dragy much or go to tracks and you wind up wanting another tenth here or another MPH there. It never ends.


This is a long term thing. I cannot afford to go buy all of this stuff and put it together anytime soon so I'll be getting it piece by piece as I can. I have an S6 R/T 100 exhaust that likely works well enough with any of the kits and I'll probably put the MVT back on the 94 and the S6 programmable ignition on the 100.


I'm posting all of this to welcome opinions and any more info so please share.

[aeroxbud]

You said you were a bit disappoint with the Malossi 100 power figures when it came out. But perhaps Malossi has gone a slightly different route with the 100.
Could it be that the peak power is only one part of the puzzle? Perhaps they are aiming for a wider power band with this cylinder? If so it would make it more controllable at launch.
A lot of these end up in stuff like Piaggio Zips. The short wheelbase doesn't need more power. It needs more controllable power. Just my

[oldgeek]

Oct 21, 2024 7:37:17 GMT -5 90GTVert said:

Malossi MHR 94cc : 31HP (current setup)
Malossi MHR 100cc : 32HP
Stage6 R/T 100cc : 37HP
8.1 R-18 100cc : 43HP
.

Well the Malossi MHR 100cc will unlikely be able to satisfy your needs due to its similar output to the one you already have. Only Stage6 R/T 100cc and beyond make sense, I am sure you already know that! I guess I dont have anything really meaningful to add, except go for it!

[190mech]

That 100 crank is a worked over BWS100 setup as they had 47 stroke,14mm pin,82mm crankwheels..Wish they would have made a 50 bore, 50 stroke 100, guess it was easier(cheaper) to revamp an old short stroke design,,