Triton # 2 (T2) 49cc to 110cc & Nearly Everywhere In Between

[90GTVert]

I played with the ignition curve a little today. Started out with what I've had in it for a while for a baseline against 3 other slight alterations that I made in advance. I only altered 2 spots on the curve. 13,500RPM is noted because that's roughly peak power AFAICT. These are best runs with each.

60ft	0-30	0-40	0-50	330ft	0-60	660ft
Baseline = 16* @ 13,300RPM and 13.2 @ 14,000RPM (15* @ 13,500RPM)
2.12	2.17	3.21	4.74	6.04 @ 55.75	7.04	9.61 @ 66.72
001 = 17* @ 13,300RPM and 13.2 @ 14,000RPM (15.5* @ 13,500RPM)
2.1	2.08	3.1	4.56	5.98 @ 56.37	6.8	9.53 @ 66.49
002 = 17* @ 13,300RPM and 14.2 @ 14,000RPM (16* @ 13,500RPM)
2.13	2.11	3.15	4.6	6.00 @ 56.20	6.88	9.57 @ 66.54
003 = 17* @ 13,300RPM and 12.2 @ 14,000RPM (15.5* @ 13,500RPM)
2.17	2.17	3.26	4.76	6.09 @ 56.16	6.92	9.64 @ 66.76

I was happy to see a bunch of good times. Lots of 60fts around 2.12-2.13. 2.12 was the new best then I did the 2.10. There may be more there if I make the clutch more aggressive and it stays down without slipping.

There was a side wind that wasn't helping me and the CVT seems wrong because I was 14,000+ at the end of the 1/8 mile and I think that may be why MPH is lower than I'd expect from such strong runs. I'm definitely curious what happens if I get RPM to stick around peak better so I'll probably put 001 back in and see what I can do with the CVT at some point. Either less shim or more slider weight most likely. I think more personal bests may be coming.

You could spend an endless amount of time playing with the adjustable ignition, and that is where I think a lifetime supply of dyno time would come in handy. I could possibly up the lower RPM advance a little and see some benefit at launch, but I don't want to push it into detonation when I'm cruising around part throttle. Speaking of that... the detonation gauge randomly started working a couple of times. I think related to me leaning on the gauges to keep the front down. Unfortunately it didn't stay on the whole time and I wasn't about to touch the sensitivity dial to try to adjust it. Looked like possibly a useful tool from what I could see. Sadly mine is basically junk and a waste of time and money other than 5 minutes out of today.




A couple of quick shots of T2 from other people at the car show...

16:34
youtu.be/6IVv4rmv4YQ?si=fIwmZQzHgN91CHra&t=993

1:49
youtu.be/XNIB__qm50w?si=hjTlPTWdPpwk0yZ7&t=109

[90GTVert]

I took the big steel disc that is a flywheel weight off yesterday. Might as well try it and see how snappy it is and if it can make some quicker 60fts and overall times. The negatives that I expected were trouble starting and possibly idle quality (needing to set the idle higher so it won't shut off). I could deal with that for a few test runs at least.

It definitely went back to being harder to start. Starting is usually 1-3 kicks and it took at least 20 I'd guess. Idle was OK, but I turned it up a tiny bit just in case... especially since it would take more kicks if it shut off.

I was totally surprised when it fell on it's face after it got moving. RPM dropped into the 12k range, and in a perfect world I'd keep it between 13.3-13.7k all of the time. I had a tailwind on the first pass and sometimes RPM changes after the first run anyway, but it felt roughly OK. I turned around for another pass and let out partway through because I thought something was wrong. I got into it some more, but RPM was out of the power whether it was an acceleration pass or just hitting it from a roll.

My first thought was that the flywheel weight must provide some momentum when RPM comes up from the clutch working off the line and then without the extra flywheel mass RPM drops. I believe that to be the wrong idea because if it were purely carrying momentum from the clutch, it shouldn't make much difference when I'm moving and the clutch is engaged... but it did. Cruise RPM and everything was lower. It was as if I put heavy sliders in it. So much for just removing the flywheel weight and instantly going quicker.

This didn't make sense to me. I remove flywheel weight and it makes the bike more sluggish? What?!? Something must be wrong. I put the flywheel weight back on as what seemed like the simplest path to verifying that it was indeed the weight disc making all of this difference and it went back to normal. Mind blown. I just wanted to take 2 bolts and and do some fast passes on a windy day and I wind up learning something... or at least with something to think about.

My current theory is that there must be some sort of correlation between flywheel or total crank weight/mass and roller/slider weight. It appears that I'd need to reduce slider weight to get RPM back up if the flywheel weight is removed, so less weight for less weight. When installed, more weight for more weight. I talked to hypervertical and he said he tried adding more weight to the flywheel before and had to increase roller weight. He also noted that it was slower with more flywheel weight and more roller weight though.

I think of the sliders largely as related to RPM. They're just pushing outward to close the pulley based on how heavy they are vs how strong the contra spring is. In addition, they seem a bit torque sensitive. It could be contra spring differences or something else happening, as I've never tested it specifically, but generally I've had to use heavier rollers with higher output engines. As an example; I had to use much heavier weights in a 103cc stroker that turned ~9,000RPM than a 70cc sport kit at the same RPM. This adds some new layer that I don't really understand, but then thinking about my stroker argument... maybe it wasn't the torque output. Maybe it was because I put a heavier stroker crank in so I've seen this effect all along and thought it was the wrong thing? It gets even more complicated to me when I start to wonder about heavier pistons and the forces against them and so on. I do still think engine output matters though, because you can add power with something like ignition timing or jetting and need to make generally minor adjustments to roller weight because RPM goes up with more power.

Still, I'm not exactly sure why more crank/flywheel weight has to equal more roller weight to maintain RPM. My brain is stuck on the idea that roller weight should largely be due to fighting the contra spring even though I know things like engine setup, drive boss length/shimming and pulley angles can change it. I'm guessing there's some physics stuff going on with the force/inertia/momentum changing with more crank weight and how much roller weight is needed to control that the same way... but that has to be some complicated math when you add in contra spring force and all of the other factors. Physics and engineering geniuses; speak up.


On to the more fun side of things... Wind was 10-15MPH continuous with up to 25MPH gusts and I took full advantage of it. I was looking at the wind map on my phone to find roads where I'd have a direct tailwind. LOL It feels like cheating... but then if you go to the track and have the same tailwind, to my knowledge they don't disqualify your time if you set a record so this can surely count for personal bests. Just know that in normal conditions my best runs are more likely 9.6 or so in the eighth and high 6 0-60s. It still feels really good to see lower numbers though. Now if I could find a mountain AND a strong tailwind... LOL These are also the first times I've ever seen a full 70MPH in the 1/8.










The more I try to fine tune, the more I seem to learn. The dragy has done that. It was bad enough with my own time keeping, but now I get all of these details and it's so easy to use and it starts to become an obsession. Much of it frustrating. The idea that you can never lock in the right tune for long due to belt width changes is the most annoying, I think. Luckily, I'm still not pure drag. I understand that real world nobody notices the difference if I go 9.5 or 9.7. Even I can't tell, but that damn dragy is right there to let me know if I'm slow. LOL Even worse it that I get more annoyed than ever that I don't have a dyno or easy access to one because there's stuff that it would be nice to sort out there. I've just never had luck with the build material sourcing at any reasonable price. Even when I'm planning piecing together another RC-One based engine, I could try to divert funds toward dyno stuff... but if I have to choose then the higher power faster setup wins because I like to learn but ultimately I enjoy fast scooters... especially when I could have 2 scoots with these engines. It hardly seems like life could be better than that. Well... 2 RC-Ones and a dyno... Santa Claus? Are you out there? I can make some pretty good cookies and (if you ignore the constant wheelies and racing) I've been a good boy.

[zekefab]

What are your weights in sliders currently?

[zekefab]

I had recently had an issue where it was breaking up bad down low and cleared up with throttle but I quickly noticed ect clime fast with every pull. pulled the head off and saw traces the oring was giving out in one spot. Thinking that was reason for the break up and maybe because my squish was on the tight side at .52, I took small cut on the lathe but I didn’t measure it (I probably should have). After putting it back together it still broke up down low. Came to find the ground connection at the coil was wiggly loose. Clamped it to a tight fit and zero break up.

It was gonna bug me not knowing the squish as I only took a hair off….. it’s at 1mm!!!! but it still runs very strong hitting the low 80s mph. So I’m gonna leave it and ride it. Maybe it will give me a little better longevity?

[90GTVert]

Oct 25, 2024 17:59:38 GMT -5 zekefab said:

What are your weights in sliders currently?

6.25g with a Polini 36kg spring

[oldgeek]

The optimal CVT setup for a 150lb rider should differ from the optimal CVT setup for a 300lb rider on the same scooter correct?

I think it is correct because rider weight, available torque from the motor and the torque driver setup are a big factor in the CVT setup, along with variator weights and the contra spring to a lesser extent.

Focusing on the torque driver, the force applied by the belt to spread it and the resistance the torque driver has to that force is difficult for me to understand. If you have ever played with a torque driver that does not have a contra spring installed and wrap a belt around it, you may understand what I am trying to describe. That part alone boggles my mind. Throw in belt width, belt length, shimming, how much travel you have left in the CVT after it gets you in the correct RPM range and a couple other factors I likely left out or dont know about........
Almost rocket science IMO

[90GTVert]

My headlight was loose in the housing again, so I was pretty sure a clip was missing. Found some on Amazon and they turned out to be better than the originals. A little thicker, and they put more pressure on the light to hold it.

amzn.to/3YJBLtw







I put less weight in the variator and tried the scoot with no flywheel weight again. It went slower, but my rear brake started dragging a little I’m not sure if it’s that or it just doesn’t like the lack of weight. RPM wasn’t perfect either.

I found that all of the friction material on one pad was gone.




The caliper is sold as Aerox rear caliper at ScooterTuning, but Aerox rear pads don’t look like these. Aerox front looked close so I ordered a pair. I guess I got the comparison on video and no pics, but they matched up well enough to appear that they can work, but they’re a little small and don’t have a nub on top for the clip to interact with. Seems to work on the stand, but no test ride yet. If anyone knows what these are LMK.




It’s still not together because the compensator ring w as gone in my torsen setup when I disassembled it. That was supposed to be here yesterday, but got delayed.



Scooter Shootout this Saturday was officially announced yesterday. If anyone’s around, $20 to enter the track and $20 for a tech card is all it takes to race.

[90GTVert]

No prep is tomorrow and there are already something like 10 scoots camping there. I've got 2, but no one to ride the second (T1). I know of about 6-7 more from the guys that I've rode with quite a bit. At least a few more beyond those from another group. I think our little impromptu relaxed scooter class is gonna be bigger than the motorcycle class.


I put a new rear brake caliper assy on today because it started dragging again with just the new pads. Went back to using the flywheel weight because I wasn't seeing an advantage without it and it's way harder to start. Switched to a 32kg contra from 36 (28 came with the Polini vari). Turned the clutch engagement up about all the way without switching to the extra stiff purple springs. I made a timing curve like the one I've been using, but with more advance at low RPM to see if it would get off the line harder.

Did my best ever, a 9.33 @ 69 with a mild tailwind, but 9.62 the opposite direction against it... so averaging 9.48. 2.05 60ft, 6.30 0-60. 100% this thing should go 8s with someone that's not huge if they could hold the front down or ride it out. It barely holds the front down with me on it.

I think it may be running the bowl dry at the end, because it loses RPM and starts to feel like it's bogging a little. Plug is very thick mixture ring, like it's too rich. I think I may do better with a smaller main jet, but I didn't want to touch anything and didn't really have time to. If all goes well, I'll try a different main jet sometime after the no prep or possibly if we can get a few fun runs later at night.

I'm gonna try to send it, but I don't know how that works. Even though I don't perceive slip, I remember being on the track in TN and T2 seeming like it wanted to come up more than street runs. I went slower for a bit there because I was too nervous about wheelies. I only know one way to find out if I can WOT from the start on the track and that's to do it... but I'm definitely a little scared. LOL

[aeroxbud]

Being scared will keep you sharp.

[90GTVert]

I had a great time at the no prep event yesterday. I haven't gone to the track for years, so first off there's a TON of horsepower today compared to what I remember from track days. VERY fast cars. Spent most of the day watching them or standing around the tech area where they gather for chip draws waiting for the scoot class to be called late in the day... but once we got going we went through rounds pretty quickly.

There were 16 of us. I drew one of the event organizers round 1 and he immediately proclaimed a curse word or 2. LOL He did a huge burnout and then picked the front up leaving; later telling me that he knew he couldn't win so he wanted to put on a show at the light. I messed him him, letting out and blipping the throttle.

Round 2 I drew a Zuma with a pipe that would have been an easy win. My friend drew his son and didn't wanna race him. I traded his son spots, which made me race 1 of 2 people that I was actually worried about. He's got a Jog with a 70 that's on the ground with wheelie bars. I'm terrible at the light and he got out on me, but I did reel him in. Made me work for it for sure.

Round 3 I drew the other guy that I was worried about; a 180cc GY6 piloted by a wild man. I ride with this guy in OC and I know he gets off the line hard, but normally I pull past from HP. He left before the light and it felt like he was half track by the time I got going (it wasn't really, but he had a hell of a lead). That thing was rollin' last night because I couldn't pull on him, or at least not much.

I went back to the truck thinking it was chase is a race and I lost. I chased because I just wanna race. Turns out you lose if you go before the light so I was in the final.

I raced a 16 year old that rides with us for the final. He was on his GY6 Ruckus. He asked before the run if I wanted to split the pot. I told him I was pretty sure what was gonna happen, but I'll do it anyway. His exhaust had broken off and his father is one of the event organizers so I saw him working all day. Not sure I woulda split with anyone else. Took that win and collected $375 even with the split because the motorcycle class basically didn't show up and the sponsors of that moved money to the scooter shootout instead. I think I would have had $600 without the split. Quite an opportunity considering I paid $40 total to race.

Went back to the trucks and a guy on a golf cart challenged a scoot to a run down the little offshoot road of the pits. Golf cart stood about straight up and then locked up the brakes to stop before the end. Scoot passed him, but it was fun to watch. The guy with the Jog wanted me to try it for a launch or 2. I told him I'm gonna break it. It's super low and I'm double his weight. Well, I broke it. Sorta. It shuddered when I tried to go. I thought maybe I was bottoming out or the wheelie bar was doing that. Turned around and it felt like I was holding the rear brake. He got on and tried to take off and said the gearbox went. Then he told me he was just telling the others that it was on it's last legs so it wasn't me.

I asked one of the event organizers and he said we could do runs for fun if we wanted. The guy running the staging lanes is also a scooter guy that rides with their group so we could go whenever the cars weren't running their semi and finals. I raced the guy with the GY6 again and he left again, paired with my slow reaction to the light with no guessing. Again, I think it should have been a good race if we left side by side. I told the guy with the now broken Jog to ride T1 and he got a few races in on it. I ran him and it was really close. He ran the guy with the GY6 and said that was really close as well. He came back after the first run and said he was in love with a big smile on his face. Says he's gonna go liquid cooled next year and really likes the way the scoot feels as well.


Overall, a fun day with a lot of great people. Most of the track workers were scoot people that I've rode with, and all of the rest were very nice as well.



(The lady on the return road wrote "Winner!" on my helmet, not me. LOL No other place to write lane numbers and positions from chip draws on T2.)

[oldgeek]

Sounds like quite the day! Is scootering making a slight comeback? How many years have you been basically looking for anyone to race with? It would be great to be able to participate in an event like that.
That was quite nice of you to split the pot with the kid knowing you would likely win.

If you ever find the solution to big guy = slow launch you will be untouchable.

[90GTVert]

Nov 10, 2024 9:39:59 GMT -5 oldgeek said:

Is scootering making a slight comeback?

I had the same thought, but I think I just found a good group that recently formed because a few of them realized how fun scooters are. Now, if everyone else is suddenly riding with a group that never existed till recently... then we might have a scooter revolution happening. It could be 2008 all over again (when gas prices were high and scooter sales surged).


We're aiming to make scooter racing a thing though. I joked in a group chat that nobody likes us because the pro cameras at the event all took a break when scoots came out. One of the event organizers said this :

"It's OK. They gonna like us one way or another. LOL Some guys actually came up to me and was like, bro, this shit is crazy and different but I love it. LOL"

[90GTVert]

I started the parts pile for a Stage6 R/T FL100 RC-1... slowly but surely. Only have the cases and the cylinder right now. I haven't paid much attention to any of it at this point because I'm so far from being able to do anything with it. I saw a post about an RC-1 that's really a C-1 and figured I'd better check though. Here's the thread...

49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/32662/rc-1-case-differences

[oldgeek]

Nov 14, 2024 20:00:44 GMT -5 90GTVert said:

I started the parts pile for a Stage6 R/T FL100 RC-1... slowly but surely. Only have the cases and the cylinder right now. I haven't paid much attention to any of it at this point because I'm so far from being able to do anything with it. I saw a post about an RC-1 that's really a C-1 and figured I'd better check though. Here's the thread...

49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/32662/rc-1-case-differences

Well that's a bunch of crap! Too much $$ for Malossi to be pulling that.

[aeroxbud]

You might have to use the old cases for the 100cc. And the newer ones for the RC. That sucks.
What's were the cases you used on the bigger engine you were building? pete130