|
|
Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 8, 2016 22:59:43 GMT -5
Here's my promised series on my hybrid scooters, I purchased four hybrid scooters to bring back to life and two parts bikes. If I can get all six running and road legal, that would be a bonus. I went there thinking I'd get four complete scooters and noticed two more in the corner. I had no idea how I'd get them in my trailer, but five fit in the trailer and one in the truck bed.   History of the Scooters
Back in 2008 a company called Veken Scooters imported a line of scooters built by the Chinese company ABAT. One of the models was a hybrid with an electric hub motor and a GY6 gas engine. Here are the specs compared to a Taotao ATM50, I own two of those as well. 2008 Veken VK-M50 vs. 2013 Taotao ATM50-A1
Veken had lots of problems with the ABAT build quality and eventually sued the company. They won the case and ABAT agreed to take them back and send replacements. Well, they took them back, but never delivered on the replacements. This helped kill the Veken company. A small number Veken scooters made it into the public's hands and as far as know they are the only hybrid scooters in the USA. The guy I purchased them from picked them up at a trade show along with a few electric only models and a couple 125cc versions of the hybrids. My first impressionsI haven't found much information about them online since the company's gone out of business. I've seen a few old craigslist ads and read about a dealer that had a couple, but that's about it. No manuals, no electronics diagrams, nothing. Luckily I already have the Taotao scooters, so I understand the GY6 fairly well. The hub motor is similar to the one on my ebike build, so I have a handle on that as well. There is no walk-through space in the front, that's occupied by the battery and electronic controls Side views:   Hub motor:  The engine and battery compartments are really tight (more on this later:  The dash looks good and has charging indicators, oh, the motor charges the battery pack after reaching about 20mph  The bike has three modes: Motor - 36v electric hub motor alone Engine - GY6 power alone Mix - Starts off in electric mode, starts GY6 engine after you reach around 20mph I've tested all three modes with a 36V SLA temporary battery. The next installment will go over getting them running. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2016 1:20:24 GMT -5
interesting concept but it seems that you would be wearing on the starter a lot. people have enough trouble with the starting systems (and electrical systems in general!) with these let alone additional electronics to start the engine automatically at 20mph.
good luck!
|
|
|
|
Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 9, 2016 16:59:44 GMT -5
Once the engine is started I don't think it stops. I haven't built a big enough battery pack to really test it yet. I don't plan on running it in that mode anyway. I look at the electric drive as a backup in case of engine failure. It may also give you some much needed power when you need it. I'll test that as well.
There's a big honking relay box that I think is the center of the switch over. No documentation so I'm figuring it out as I go.
There is a separate 12V battery for the starting circuit of the GY6.
|
|
|
|
Post by 2stroked on Jul 9, 2016 17:04:22 GMT -5
Is the engine just a normal gy6 mill, of was it specially built to be a hybrid? I shard the same skepticism stated above. The starter would be getting a hell of a workout if the engine is shut off under 20 and started back again after 20+, wouldn't it? Unless the designer engineered a special half starting mdchanism to work with the hub motor?  ? |
|
|
|
Post by 90GTVert on Jul 9, 2016 17:42:53 GMT -5
I look at the electric drive as a backup in case of engine failure. It may also give you some much needed power when you need it.  Push To Pass on a scooter! Suddenly I want a hybrid. |
|
|
|
Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 9, 2016 17:43:06 GMT -5
First Running Scooter
The red one in the picture is the first one I got running after I replaced the carb, draining the gas, and putting a fresh 12V battery in it. It seemed to run okay so I took it for a test drive. I drove about 2 miles and the engine stuttered and then stopped completely. It started again, and died in about one tenth of a mile. It refused to start so I had to call for a ride and went back and picked it up with my truck.
I figured the valves were adjusted too tight, I didn't own a set of wrenches for setting the valves so I ordered a set on Amazon.
...
Wrenches came in so I checked out my path to setting the valves. The battery/control box makes it impossible to get the valve cover off. You can see this in an earlier picture. I had to loosen all the side panels to get the box out. It didn't help that is was around 94 degrees and super humid. I looked down into the battery box and saw a pool of water, it was sweat dripping off my head.
Even with the box out of the way it's tough to get at the valves, nowhere near as easy as my Taotao. They were WAY off, I couldn't get any feeler gauges to fit. It took a bunch of loosening to get .002". I set them as best I could, closed it up, and reassembled everything. It started right up, easier than before, but I obviously set them too open. I could hear the unmistakable sound of clicking valves. Good enough to test my theory though.
I let the bike heat up and drove it around. All seemed good until it stumbled, but it didn't stop. It kept going but stumbled if I gave it full throttle. I wish these things had a manual choke so I could rule out a vacuum leak. Now I figure it was a combination of issues that caused it to die before. I'll look for vacuum leaks, check to make sure the PAIR system is connected properly. After that it's the tank valve and ignition system. I may just shotgun the ignition system, the parts are cheap enough.
|
|
|
|
Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 9, 2016 17:48:18 GMT -5
Is the engine just a normal gy6 mill, of was it specially built to be a hybrid? I shard the same skepticism stated above. The starter would be getting a hell of a workout if the engine is shut off under 20 and started back again after 20+, wouldn't it? Unless the designer engineered a special half starting mdchanism to work with the hub motor? ? It looks like a regular GY6, the hub motor bolts on like the wheel of a standard scooter. I won't know if the motor stops again until I do an extended run with a battery pack. I have some SLA AND 18650s on the way to build both types of packs. The SLA will be easiest, so that will be my primary test platform. It uses the regular GY6 starter to get the engine going. |
|
|
|
Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 9, 2016 18:28:31 GMT -5
Second Running Scooter
While I was waiting for the valve wrenches I started in on a second bike, sorry no pics yet. I replaced the carb, drained the tank, and put a fresh 12V battery in it. It started up okay and I ran it for a while to make sure it didn't have the same issue as the red bike.
I had a few 7ah 12V batteries so I assembled a test pack. Not enough to ride, but enough to verify the hybrid system works as I assumed it did.
I put the bike on the center stand, put the switch in "Mix" and twisted the throttle. The hub motor fired up and quickly got up to speed, then the starter kicked in and the gas engine fired up. It works! I have no idea what speed it switches over since it was up in the air.
After the first couple of successes the gas engine had difficulty starting. I looked down and saw the intake manifold was cracked, old rubber I guess. I'll need to address this before I test again.
Misc. Notes
When I first tried starting these bikes I didn't have spark ... kickstand has to be up to start them. I don't understand why the starter motor would run if it wasn't going to have spark, silly design.
These bikes have obviously been sitting for more than a year. I need to look closely at all of the hoses. Maybe I'll test with my propane torch for vacuum leaks.
All of the bikes are in varying states of disassembly, someone tried to get them running and failed.
Once you hit 25mph the engine generates enough power to charge the batteries. There's a set of LEDs that show the status of the 36V battery system. Even with the batteries out they light up once the system generates 36V. I assume this means that either the stator is different, or there's a 12V to 36V converter. Again, no docs so I'll have to figure it out.
These bikes ride REALLY nice, much smoother on the road than my Taotaos. The 14" wheels are a big plus. Even if I don't use the hybrid feature the ride is well worth the work I'm putting in to these bikes.
The brakes are much better than the Taotaos as well, they stop really quickly.
|
|
|
|
Post by gsx600racer on Jul 9, 2016 22:03:40 GMT -5
Neat concept. Now we can sneak up on those damn squirrel's darting across the road in electric mode.  |
|
|
|
Post by FrankenMech on Jul 10, 2016 1:39:11 GMT -5
Second Running ScooterAll of the bikes are in varying states of disassembly, someone tried to get them running and failed. Someone trying to get them working could explain the silly starter & center stand wiring. |
|
|
|
Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 10, 2016 9:30:27 GMT -5
Second Running ScooterAll of the bikes are in varying states of disassembly, someone tried to get them running and failed. Someone trying to get them working could explain the silly starter & center stand wiring. No, the kickstand shutoff is a safety feature on bigger bikes. I'm sure that's how they came from the factory. |
|
|
|
Post by 2stroked on Jul 10, 2016 15:48:58 GMT -5
Honestly, I would love to have something like that but on a 250 Linhai, quite in the AM when leaving the neighborhood, nice....
|
|
|
|
Post by FrankenMech on Jul 10, 2016 16:34:08 GMT -5
Someone trying to get them working could explain the silly starter & center stand wiring. No, the kickstand shutoff is a safety feature on bigger bikes. I'm sure that's how they came from the factory. No? On bigger bikes only??? That is BS. The OEM kickstand shutoff is found on many bikes and scoots. Many people will rewire in an attempt to bypass them or during troubleshooting start problems. I listed a possible reason for what you called a "silly design". I can wire a scoot in my sleep. I am sure I can wire a hybrid damn near as easy. These systems are child's play. |
|
|
|
Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 10, 2016 22:57:42 GMT -5
No, the kickstand shutoff is a safety feature on bigger bikes. I'm sure that's how they came from the factory. No? On bigger bikes only??? That is BS. The OEM kickstand shutoff is found on many bikes and scoots. Many people will rewire in an attempt to bypass them or during troubleshooting start problems. I listed a possible reason for what you called a "silly design". I can wire a scoot in my sleep. I am sure I can wire a hybrid damn near as easy. These systems are child's play. The "silly design" point was that the starter is enabled but spark is not. A safer design would disable BOTH when the kickstand is down. You can't start most riding mowers unless the brake is on and the blade clutch is disengaged, you'd think they would have disabled both starter and spark. I know it's not the only bike designed this way. I didn't say it was only on bigger bikes, I just said it was found on bigger bikes. My 49cc Taotao and Linhai scooters do not have this feature and they are much newer than these 2008 hybrids. Most of the bikes I've owned have been older models with little in the way of added safety features like a kickstand kill switch. Please accept my humble apology if you feel I have slighted designers of smaller bikes, I meant no disrespect. You're welcome to come over and check out the bikes if you're in the Western Mass area! You can check out the DC-DC converter, hub motor speed control, 36V charger, hybrid switching module and whatever other boxes I haven't found yet. One of the bikes has few body panels on it so access to these systems would be easy for you to see. I'm sure the other owners of these bikes would appreciate a functional description of the wiring system and control boxes. That would be a real service to the community! Send me a PM if you want to stop over |
|
|
|
Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 10, 2016 23:06:10 GMT -5
I took the red bike out for a short ride tonight and it wouldn't start unless I put my hand over the air cleaner intake. That tells me that either the electric choke isn't working right on the new carb or I have a vacuum leak. I'm leaning towards the vacuum leak since I've already found a cracked intake on the second bike and the hoses are hard and not flexible like new ones.
It could be both. It wouldn't be the first time a new carb had a bad electric choke on it.
If anyone wants to see these bikes, send me a PM. They're located in the Springfield Massachusetts area.
|
|
?
Push To Pass on a scooter! Suddenly I want a hybrid.
