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Post by lostforawhile on Oct 29, 2017 21:35:03 GMT -5
So ... I went to check for spark today and...there it is. Spark. Put the scooter back together as I had a bunch of plastics all off. The new carb I installed working great so it actually ran. We rode it around for about 30 minutes testing it out..everything was great. I really dont even know why it had spark today as opposed to any other day. Then .. 8 hours later (tonight) went to ride it again and ... no spark. Absolutely nothing had changed from when we parked it earlier. I simply dont understand what is going on with this thing!!! Assuming it might be the stator I went to pull it and ... the tool I got wont thread into the flywheel. It has a 24mm side and a 27mm side. The 24mm seems right but when I go to thread it in it is either slightly too big or the threads are a different pitch. Has anybody had this problem? I thought all these tools and parts were pretty much generic and interchangeable. Help?! Thanks did you try turning it the opposite way when you threaded it in?
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Post by cagiva4ever on Oct 30, 2017 5:18:12 GMT -5
i dont see anything mentioned about Ign lock barrel, yet.
its the Basic variable thingy that you have done so far, as every time you Turn it, its intermittent issue..Point into bad continuity at Ign lock bottom at the Pinout, or even soldering cold joints etc issues. check also ign lock's Multiconnector Block.
or sidestand safety switch issues etc.. These are on the old PDF from other forum, for Basic fault finding eliminating Switch issues...
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Post by nikg736 on Oct 30, 2017 20:49:03 GMT -5
I did not check ignition lock barrel, however I had tested things with kill switch wire to CDI removed previously and got no spark. To my knowledge if the no spark issue was due to any switches then this should have taken care of it, Correct? Or am I missing something?
With regards to the flywheel puller I did try at least a dozen times in both clockwise and counterclockwise rotation to thread it in with no success. I wiggled and adjusted it to ensure it was straight on and not possible being threaded at an angle or stripping the threads. I also put a little WD40 on it just in case it was just not getting a smooth turn due to residue etc. No luck. Again, I am wondering if there is any way I got a faulty tool or if there are different pitches to the threads used on some of these things. Unless I have lost all of my mechanical skills (which could be), this tool aint threading into that flywheel!
Is there any chance something like the stator would work intermittently? Finicky pickup coil? I am at the point of replacing the stator because honestly it is the only other part in the ignition system I have not replaced but two things are holding me back 1-I am not convinced it is the stator...I am almost thinking this is a bad switch/ground/gremlin in the system 2-I cant replace the stator if I cant get the flywheel off and I am hesitant to purchase another flywheel puller just to find out that the new tool does not work either
Help before I decide taking a sledgehammer to this thing may not fix it but would be more satisfying.
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Post by cagiva4ever on Oct 31, 2017 5:10:38 GMT -5
Kill switch wire(ground) taken OF from CDI only eliminates Killswitch circuits, such as Ign Lock OFF position and sidestand.
what i mean is that, you may have faulty PinOut continuity on your "PowerOn" "live" circuit in your Ign Lock barrel...
edit: i re-read your 1st post.. apparently you always get the engine to turn over/rotate. no intermittent issues on Live circuitry ON/power on. and i now assume that your scooter is ac-cdi version and not dc-cdi like most 4t 139qmb Kymco's etc.
These china Ign barrels are very very Rough made, bottoms come out loose crooked, wont stay in groove at crimped Barrel body. NO waterproofing sealing, moisture and corrosion issues allover solderings etc Often.
You can always use Multimter to bench test the Ign Lock barrel pinouts (Multiple times in a row. slowly, fast wiggly etc..to simulate rattles vibrations etc) 1 important thing also is to do test(s) with and Without a pushing force into KEY when its turned during turning..... IF you understand/know Basic Anatomy(s) structure(s) of diff Ign Lock barrels, you know why.
Hmmmm, i cant remember right now if all 139QMB FlyWheels have same Puller thread specs. all mine have been same so far that ive handleded (but still 10+ Flywheels to go through on spares boxes..)
anyway i only use custom made (CNC lathe made) Puller on my 139QMB Flywheels etc China FlyWheels. my puller(s) are made accurately and from best possible steel.
i say this, as even Buzzetti made in italy Pullers are way too Often crap, thread is dull etc issues often, even pitch isnt in tolerance. surface finish is rough etc issues.
edit: i had a look at my 139QMB puller. its M24x1.0mm righthand thread. anyway. LH thread can be naked eye identifyed if you have anything other comparison part close to it in thread dim and pitch. or trained eye can identify it right away without Comparison at side...
There is a Alternative solution to Remove Flywheel Professionally, by using DIY made tool, that makes use/takes advantage of the 4X M6 CoolingFan threads at FlyWheel (or also 2nd option, more work, Threading 2 larger holes...)
a DIY made flat plate, that has M10 or M12 NUT welded on center of Plate and SHORT 4x M6 bolts through plate into FlyWheel's 4x M6 coolingfan thread holes. does it need more explained ?
Short M6's or you will Destroy stator Windings. as it would be waisted info not to visually inspect the stator and measure its Ohms etc, EVEN that its going to be replaced/"trashed".....
needles to say that minium 8.8grade bolts, not chinese substd 4.5 "labelled".
Generally speaking, intermittently failing ignition parts start to ActUp when Heat builds up into them. Generally it takes 10~15~20mins to overheat and shortout. in hot temps less time... such as cdi units. Stators mainly burn out as Lacquer over windings burn and shortout. or pick-up has corrosion inside it around metal armature. etc.
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Post by lostforawhile on Oct 31, 2017 22:03:55 GMT -5
my main ignition issue was the voltage output of the stator charge coil was slowly dropping, so it would sometimes be able to fire the plug, and sometimes not. remember just because you get spark outside of the cylinder, doesn't mean you do under compression. take your meter put it on AC volts, connect one lead to ground, and one lead to the red/black separate wire coming from the stator, now watch the voltage while cranking, if it's below 50 volts cranking your charge coil is probably going. mine was down to 30 before it quit starting
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Post by nikg736 on Nov 1, 2017 21:39:27 GMT -5
Cagiva4ever - home-made flywheel puller makes sense, great explanation. I will probably try that. The last I checked the stator was pushing 70 or more volts.
Could the ignition barrel also explain my problem with the starter? Sometimes it works and sometimes not. Now it just seems that it never works. But come to think of it the starter was not working when I did have spark and got the machine running. How would one test the ignition barrel? I do have a multimeter and am able to test.
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Post by greginisn on Nov 1, 2017 22:22:09 GMT -5
Hi, Ignition coils can go intermittant as can plug wires. They can break in the middle and either screw on end can go iffy too. I hate to prescribe parts but have you considered a new coil, wire and plug cap. Any and all of those bits can go bad and just give you fits . Next time it won’t start pull the plug and check for spark while cranking with spark plug connected to ground OR as some nutty guy suggested, get your GF or wife to hold the plug Good luck, Greg
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Post by nikg736 on Nov 2, 2017 21:09:23 GMT -5
I have tried 3 different coils/wires/plugs.
I honestly think this is an electrical switch problem or a stator problem. All other parts have been swapped out with multiple other iterations with seemingly no affect. I would love some advice on how and what to test with the ignition barrel because I am thinking maybe that is the culprit.
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 3, 2017 5:20:01 GMT -5
There should be a kill wire and a ground going to the ignition switch. Their circuit should be completed when off, to kill the ignition and then broken when on/run to allow spark.
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Post by nikg736 on Nov 3, 2017 19:17:46 GMT -5
Is this the kill wire that goes to the CDI? If that is the case then I still have a problem because I get no spark even when the kill switch wire is removed from the CDI. I am going out to play with things a bit right now to see if I get any results.
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Post by nikg736 on Nov 3, 2017 20:41:50 GMT -5
I am lost. Just went out to garage, tightened pickup coil that I had partially loose before, wiggled ignition barrel and...it works! Ran like a dream. I simply have no idea what is going on. At this point I have to assume a bad pickup coil, stator or switch somewhere. I think all the major parts are good...probably just a switch. I guess we will just have to see if it runs tomorrow
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Post by cagiva4ever on Nov 4, 2017 5:53:40 GMT -5
I am lost. Just went out to garage, tightened pickup coil that I had partially loose before, wiggled ignition barrel and...it works! Ran like a dream. ...... Repeat it do it again: the Ign lock barre wiggling. probelm is that you made a Mistake and made 2 different changes at once, and now there is no Absolute fact for which1 worked. sounds thow as i said Ign Barrel issue......ive been called a Jeesus before but then it wasnt a compliment. im your false prophet, or not. muahahaha
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Post by nikg736 on Nov 4, 2017 21:22:42 GMT -5
Of course this morning .. no spark. Absolutely nothing changed from when we put it in the garage last night. We used the handlebar kill switch instead of the ignition for fear that it would cause the problem. But...not the case. I tried kicking it over and over and my son and i noticed that it got a spark here and there while he moved the handlebar kill switch back and forth. It never got spark while in the on position or in between at any given point. Only when moving it back and forth. Didnt have time all day to work on it. So...just went out right now and tried again. Got a few sparks here and there while fiddling with the switch. Unplugged kill switch wire from CDI - no spark
BELOW IS MY MOST ESSENTIAL QUESTION THAT I NEED A DEFINITIVE ANSWER FOR: Is there any possible earthly way that the problem could be in any switch if the white/black wire is disconnected from the CDI?
To my knowledge this answer is NO because as I understand it the ignition barrel switch and kill switch on the handlebar serve to ground out the spark route. With only the bk/wh wire disconnected from the CDI and all others connected then the switches should have no bearing on spark production. I just looked at a few wiring diagrams and most all of them seem to suggest the bk/wh wire that goes to the CDI is hooked in series to the ignition barrel switch and handlebar kill switch. By removing that wire from the CDI we are absolutely eliminating any possible way for the switches to interfere and cause a problem, correct?
I am 100% certain it is not the coil nor the spark plug nor the CDI. I want to completely rule out the switches because that only leaves the stator and before I go about making my own flywheel puller I want to be certain this is the culprit.
Thanks
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Post by dexameth on Nov 5, 2017 7:00:53 GMT -5
I think it's your key/ignition switch. I had done a frame/wire harness swap last year and everything went together fine but I had the exact same issue you are having. I found out quick though. I would turn the key to on, and the light would come on and it would crank over. But it would die when ever I would touch the scoot. The key would wiggle and cause something inside the tumbler to come loose and the bike would die. So, with the key on, I wiggled the key and the wires behind the tumbler and sure enough everything was flickering.
Took the ignition switch off the old scoot frame and everything has been running fine. Do you have another ignition switch? If not, maybe just hotwire that beast! Haha kidding...
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Post by nikg736 on Nov 5, 2017 20:34:35 GMT -5
Dexameth- thanks for the reply. My thought is that if I entirely take the switches out of the picture then I can rule them out as bad.
My main question stands -- if the bk/wh wire is removed from the CDI does this eliminate bad switches of any kind as a possible source of no-spark problems?
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