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Post by usmcdoc on Apr 24, 2014 13:03:46 GMT -5
Suffering a Minarelli Migraine. Ok..blinkers will work when key is on and engine is NOT running.(As they run off of the battery on this typical AC system) Leave blinker on and crank engine and they go off and will not blink. Leaving them on and hitting the Kill Switch they begin to work again. It gets more bizarre..trust me. Check the battery with engine off and it reads 12.95 VDC. Start the engine and the multimeter flips and flashes numbers so fast ya can't see them when ya check the battery. Hit the Kill Switch and it goes right back to 12.95 VDC. Engine and frame grounds all check out..all lights work fine..horn E-Start etc. Try to check Stator AC output is a no go. Unplugged from the harness black on black..and red to yellow then white wire shows mayhem!!! The meter just flashes all kinds of random numbers and gives no output reading. Again Scooter starts and runs fine! BUT..while running..if you unplug the 3 wire Stator connector..the engine idles WAY high to about 3,500rpm and stays there.(yes even after the auto enricher has warmed and shut off) Plug the Stator connector back together and it instantly drops down to a nice 1,800-2,000 rpm idle...  But still no flashers or stable/readable output from ANY Stator wire. In fact even the red CDI power wire does this..you cannot get a normal 40-100 VAC reading from it..3 different Meters used for all the testing..and they all just flash when testing ANY wire from the Stator. Again..red CDI..yellow lighting..white for charging and even blue for the pickup trigger...all just flash random numbers. YET!! The Scooter starts and runs fine. Now the very odd part. Set the Meter to AC then DC and touch ONLY the Meters black wire to the frame at either setting...and you get the same flickering of the Meter...just as ya do when putting black to ground and red to a Stator output wire. Shut the engine off and do the same..just touching the black lead to ground..and you get a 0.0 (normal reading) Swapped in a good Stator..same thing..tested and swapped a new R/R along with it..same thing. Tested the leads to the auto enricher in case it was shorted and voltage to that flickers as well. Unplugged the auto enricher to rule out a short in it..and still the same. Removed the black kill wire..same thing. It seems as if their is a Hot to Ground short in the system maybe??? Yet only present when the engine is running..wth??..  The only upgrade or change the guy has made to the Scoot was to use 194/T10 base LED lights in his instrument cluster. Soo..I wonder..since LED's are polarized..could they be acting like a 1/2 wave rectifier or diode and dumping part of the AC current from the Stator to ground... causing a short/hot to ground effect?. I know LED bulbs can create havoc on some systems..but the blinker bulbs are standard filament type bulbs..only the dash panel bulbs(that run off the Stator) ate LED bulbs. But even if they were acting as a diode does and dumping 1/2 of the Stators AC current to ground..would I not still be able to get a good..steady..stable and visible AC reading from all of my Stators wires?..  Umm..so like..somebody...Help??  Thanks, Glenn |
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Post by Upgrayedd on Apr 24, 2014 14:04:42 GMT -5
led's are blocking diodes, power will not flow backwards through them. if theres power flowing back to it the led will not let it pass. if its enough current it will just blow the led. if wired with a ground it will shunt it to ground. if have regular bulbs to try in place of leds, could rule them in or out asa the problem. *my i'm a dummy disclaimer* the specifics of all that i am clueless on, this info is via my other half, the electrical wizard.
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Post by Upgrayedd on Apr 24, 2014 14:12:46 GMT -5
Suffering a Minarelli Migraine. Ok..blinkers will work when key is on and engine is NOT running.(As they run off of the battery on this typical AC system) Leave blinker on and crank engine and they go off and will not blink. Leaving them on and hitting the Kill Switch they begin to work again. It gets more bizarre..trust me. Check the battery with engine off and it reads 12.95 VDC. Start the engine and the multimeter flips and flashes numbers so fast ya can't see them when ya check the battery. Hit the Kill Switch and it goes right back to 12.95 VDC. Engine and frame grounds all check out..all lights work fine..horn E-Start etc. Try to check Stator AC output is a no go. Unplugged from the harness black on black..and red to yellow then white wire shows mayhem!!! The meter just flashes all kinds of random numbers and gives no output reading. Again Scooter starts and runs fine! BUT..while running..if you unplug the 3 wire Stator connector..the engine idles WAY high to about 3,500rpm and stays there.(yes even after the auto enricher has warmed and shut off) Plug the Stator connector back together and it instantly drops down to a nice 1,800-2,000 rpm idle... But still no flashers or stable/readable output from ANY Stator wire. In fact even the red CDI power wire does this..you cannot get a normal 40-100 VAC reading from it..3 different Meters used for all the testing..and they all just flash when testing ANY wire from the Stator. Again..red CDI..yellow lighting..white for charging and even blue for the pickup trigger...all just flash random numbers. YET!! The Scooter starts and runs fine. Now the very odd part. Set the Meter to AC then DC and touch ONLY the Meters black wire to the frame at either setting...and you get the same flickering of the Meter...just as ya do when putting black to ground and red to a Stator output wire. Shut the engine off and do the same..just touching the black lead to ground..and you get a 0.0 (normal reading) Swapped in a good Stator..same thing..tested and swapped a new R/R along with it..same thing. Tested the leads to the auto enricher in case it was shorted and voltage to that flickers as well. Unplugged the auto enricher to rule out a short in it..and still the same. Removed the black kill wire..same thing. It seems as if their is a Hot to Ground short in the system maybe??? Yet only present when the engine is running..wth??.. The only upgrade or change the guy has made to the Scoot was to use 194/T10 base LED lights in his instrument cluster. Soo..I wonder..since LED's are polarized.. could they be acting like a 1/2 wave rectifier or diode and dumping part of the AC current from the Stator to ground... causing a short/hot to ground effect?. I know LED bulbs can create havoc on some systems..but the blinker bulbs are standard filament type bulbs..only the dash panel bulbs(that run off the Stator) ate LED bulbs. But even if they were acting as a diode does and dumping 1/2 of the Stators AC current to ground..would I not still be able to get a good..steady..stable and visible AC reading from all of my Stators wires?.. Umm..so like..somebody...Help?? Thanks, Glenn just read her this, when i read that sentence in bold she loudly said "YES! The diodes would need to be isolated/run off dc. If you have an octopus and an o-scope for checking the output of the diodes to see what kind of waveform, b/c if youre running a/c through the diodes it could be causing a square wave out the back. leds should be on dc only, and when engine off all is fine but when ac comes on its exactly what its doing i bet its the leds acting as half wave rectifiers" I have no idea what half of that means. maybe itll help ya out. |
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Post by 2stroked on Apr 24, 2014 15:03:25 GMT -5
Upgrayedd, your other half is basicaly saying " if there is any a/c cirrent hitting the led diodes, it is causing the entire electrical system to have a " stroke " " it makes sense, as if there was an a/c trickle leak to the frame, it would cause the multimeter to randomly flash nonsensical numbers. Try eliminating the leds Doc. Goid luck.
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Post by 90GTVert on Apr 24, 2014 15:29:51 GMT -5
I'm jealous now. I need a woman that will troubleshoot electrical issues.
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Post by usmcdoc on Apr 24, 2014 15:36:43 GMT -5
Grr..swapped them out for incandescent standard 194 bulbs..and still the same. Now it has me looking(for the 4th time) for bad or missing frame ground. Whatever it is...it's giving both the stators I tried a hell of a time. Neither can give give a constant voltage. Hell ya can't even read the digital gauge..it just flickers numbers so fast it makes ya dizzy trying to see sumpin... New flasher relay did not work either..I thought maybe their might be a short there that was bleeding off current..but nope.. Still only flash when the engine is off and EVERY wire on both Stators give my Multi Meter a pseudo seizure...the display just flickers random voltages with either..and that is direct from each Stator harness with the voltage regulator unplugged just in case it was inducing a load on any of the wires or was shorted itself.. I tried soft spoken Therapeutic soothing phrases with the scoot and that did not work. Maybe I will Patronize it and build a Shrine in its honor..then bow to it??  This really has me stumped and  ...hhhmm... |
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Post by 2stroked on Apr 24, 2014 15:44:27 GMT -5
I'm jealous now. I need a woman that will troubleshoot electrical issues. Hell, don't we all?lol Um, probably a stupid question,but does this engine have the correct flywheel? Just wondering if different magnetic fields would effect things. Dont feel lonely Doc, this has us all stupified, well I am at least. Perhaps the flywheel itself has become magnetic, causing odd fields to be produced? try swaping it for a different one. IDK not trying to insult your inteligance. |
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Post by Upgrayedd on Apr 24, 2014 16:03:52 GMT -5
Grr..swapped them out for incandescent standard 194 bulbs..and still the same. Now it has me looking(for the 4th time) for bad or missing frame ground. Whatever it is...it's giving both the stators I tried a hell of a time. Neither can give give a constant voltage. Hell ya can't even read the digital gauge..it just flickers numbers so fast it makes ya dizzy trying to see sumpin... New flasher relay did not work either..I thought maybe their might be a short there that was bleeding off current..but nope.. Still only flash when the engine is off and EVERY wire on both Stators give my Multi Meter a pseudo seizure...the display just flickers random voltages with either..and that is direct from each Stator harness with the voltage regulator unplugged just in case it was inducing a load on any of the wires or was shorted itself.. I tried soft spoken Therapeutic soothing phrases with the scoot and that did not work. Maybe I will Patronize it and build a Shrine in its honor..then bow to it?? This really has me stumped and ...hhhmm... ahhhhhh that SUCKS!!! |
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Post by oldgeek on Apr 24, 2014 17:31:38 GMT -5
I think the magic smoke is "backed up" into the electrical harness. If you can get a component to release the excess magic smoke, things will improve. I know this from experience.
One thing I read that seems normal to me is the fact that the engine idle increases when you unplug the stator. It is heavily loaded when plugged in (high current draw somewhere?) and harder to rotate. When you unplug it there is no load, and no rotational drag. I think.
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Post by 2stroked on Apr 24, 2014 19:16:34 GMT -5
So Mr. Doc, what was wrong. I am certain it was not my suggestion, but did read u got it fixed. Just curious.
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Post by usmcdoc on Apr 24, 2014 20:44:34 GMT -5
Thanks folks..all the above seemed logical and plausible..but..these being Chinese products I do think any of those apply..lol Did solve the problem though. Odd yet very interesting and if I live another 51 years putting me at 102 years old..well I may just see this again..  But it may be good info for any out there that are having trouble getting an accurate reading from the Stator... as the multi meter display goes into non readable jibberish and seizure like activity.. Bear with me as I explain my findings..and always have to mention that..I am a retired Combat Medic..Paramedic...Cardiac Tech and 2 credit hours from a Nursing degree(That I don't plan to finish at 51 years of age)and I am not an electronics tech or mechanic so my terms and jargon may be really wrong or improper. Many weird things I found..but I got it fixed.. I attributed the engine rpm increase when unplugging the Stator connectors as someone mentioned as removing a load from the electrical system. Makes sense but was just something I noticed and not the solution cause..well we can't ride with out stators unplugged..I still couldn't get a steady VAC reading..nor did my blinkers work then. Which it should not affect the blinkers as they run off the battery. The LED lights although Diodes...were not acting as a 1/2 wave bridge rectifier since the standard bulbs still had the same effect and using a Radio Shack 8912 voltage regulator/rectifier in line with the LED's changed nothing. All frame and engine grounds were good. But when touching the black lead ONLY of a multi meter anywhere on the frame and getting erratic residual voltage made me think it was some sort of high frequency or amplitude interference. Which would be a stator or ignition coil..but I could not test the stator. Ok so..blinker on..key on..and blinkers worked. Crank the engine over and they would stop..  I noticed he had installed one of those 'Super high power orange give you 25 extra hp ignition coils' on the Scoot. It's ground was solid and the coil tested ok with no open or 0 Ohms readings...nor any visible arcing or misfiring with engine running. The plug checked out ok..was not fouled..and sparked well so apparently it was not forcing the high tension current to go elsewhere.. Or was it? Turned the key on..left blinker on and cranked the engine with the coils power wire pulled off. The blinker worked partially this time now. Left that wire off and checked all stator wires while cranking the engine. Voila! Now the yellow and white leads showed 18-20VAC..the pickup wire was 2VAC and the CDI wire was 60VAC! But still the blinker worked intermittently..but better than before.  Put in a new stock coil using the plug cap that came with his high output coil..connected coil power..but still the same thing. Noted his plug was B8HSA and mine was the resistor type BR8HSA. Curious if the resistor in the plug had anything to do with it I swapped them and checked stator voltage AGAIN  The readings were more stable and stayed within a closer range...but the blinkers were still d!cked up. What did all of this tell me??? I don't have a damn clue!!..but I was making some kind of progress anyway.  Then I noticed my cap was shielded like the one in pic 1 and his was the same as in pic 2. So I twisted my shielded cap on the stock coil with the resistor plug still in the engine. Fired it up and the blinkers worked...and the stator readings were super smooth and stable! Ok..so the coil..plug and cap was causing the interference..  So now what?? Leave my parts on his scoot and use his on mine??... I don't think so. I put his Orange high power 'Superman' coil back on..left the resistor plug on and used a shielded spark plug cap vice his orange one. Bingo..problem solved. If anybody knows why this did the trick..please explain. My guess is that of course..the coil caused the interference..the resistor plug quelled some of the rogue voltage...and the shielded plug cap making contact with the cylinder head provided a path for the abberant current to reach a proper ground??.. Somebody should be able to clarify why and how this is... so maybe when others have an issue with getting good Stator readings and malfunctioning electrical accessories..they won't have to go through what I did to figure this out. I read 12 Lead EKG's and start IV's for a living..so I don't hang out at Radio Shack..Grainger and NAPA...and they know me by name...  Glenn    |
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Post by Upgrayedd on Apr 24, 2014 21:01:46 GMT -5
magic maintenance  |
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Post by Sitticuss on Apr 24, 2014 21:03:07 GMT -5
Don't those two plugs have different electrodes. Sounds like you had some voltage leaking from the spark plug electrode back into the ground system? Or from the high voltage side of the coil making it into the ground circuit which would really make for some wacky results. Other than that I got nothing. All I can say is great job for hanging in there and not fixing it with a sledge hammer  |
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Post by usmcdoc on Apr 24, 2014 21:28:48 GMT -5
Don't those two plugs have different electrodes. Sounds like you had some voltage leaking from the spark plug electrode back into the ground system? Or from the high voltage side of the coil making it into the ground circuit which would really make for some wacky results. Other than that I got nothing. All I can say is great job for hanging in there and not fixing it with a sledge hammer Same electrodes just one has a resistor type core in it..supposedly to suppress your cars radio interference.. Those of us that grew up the 70's and rode older cars ESPECIALLY a VW Beetle..will tell ya that when driving the ignition messed with cars radio...and you could hear your car radio go...'Vroommm vrooomm...pop pop' right along with the engine itself. Cars now are shielded..so why we still have resistor plugs is beyond me...BUT in this case it was part of what the dudes Scoot needed. Also like you said...even though the coil was not arcing or bleeding off on the frame ground..its energy impulse was playing havoc on these Scoots weak and frail electrical system. When the shielded plug cap in pic 1 went on..it contacts the engine head and must provide a ground for the coils static or abberant current therefore cancelling out its 'Noise' My Dad was an Electronics Engineer wayyyy back in the 60's and 70's..he referred to high tension interference as as '60 cycle noise' or 'Aberrant conduction'... We were Hog Farmers..so why he was into electronics was beyond me..hell all I wanted was a nice Yorkshire Hog for the 4H program..and what does he buy me?.. A 'Radio Shack 70 project electronics kit' I didn't play with it.. I traded it for a Fly Rod and a large Box Trap... Then he really got mad when I told him.. "Ohms law is really not a law Dad..it's just some guideline for electric n crap like that"  |
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Post by 2TDave on Apr 25, 2014 6:10:28 GMT -5
Glad you got it worked out Doc. I dread the day I have electrical issues. It just isn't my thing.
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But it may be good info for any out there that are having trouble getting an accurate reading from the Stator... as the multi meter display goes into non readable jibberish and seizure like activity.. Bear with me as I explain my findings..and always have to mention that..I am a retired Combat Medic..Paramedic...Cardiac Tech and 2 credit hours from a Nursing degree(That I don't plan to finish at 51 years of age)and I am not an electronics tech or mechanic so my terms and jargon may be really wrong or improper. Many weird things I found..but I got it fixed.. I attributed the engine rpm increase when unplugging the Stator connectors as someone mentioned as removing a load from the electrical system. Makes sense but was just something I noticed and not the solution cause..well we can't ride with out stators unplugged..I still couldn't get a steady VAC reading..nor did my blinkers work then. Which it should not affect the blinkers as they run off the battery. The LED lights although Diodes...were not acting as a 1/2 wave bridge rectifier since the standard bulbs still had the same effect and using a Radio Shack 8912 voltage regulator/rectifier in line with the LED's changed nothing. All frame and engine grounds were good. But when touching the black lead ONLY of a multi meter anywhere on the frame and getting erratic residual voltage made me think it was some sort of high frequency or amplitude interference. Which would be a stator or ignition coil..but I could not test the stator. Ok so..blinker on..key on..and blinkers worked. Crank the engine over and they would stop.. 
I noticed he had installed one of those 'Super high power orange give you 25 extra hp ignition coils' on the Scoot. It's ground was solid and the coil tested ok with no open or 0 Ohms readings...nor any visible arcing or misfiring with engine running. The plug checked out ok..was not fouled..and sparked well so apparently it was not forcing the high tension current to go elsewhere.. Or was it? Turned the key on..left blinker on and cranked the engine with the coils power wire pulled off. The blinker worked partially this time now. Left that wire off and checked all stator wires while cranking the engine. Voila! Now the yellow and white leads showed 18-20VAC..the pickup wire was 2VAC and the CDI wire was 60VAC! But still the blinker worked intermittently..but better than before. 
The readings were more stable and stayed within a closer range...but the blinkers were still d!cked up. What did all of this tell me??? I don't have a damn clue!!..but I was making some kind of progress anyway. 
