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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 26, 2016 23:13:07 GMT -5
I built a power source out of three 4.0AH 36V hover board packs and took the bike for a spin. I figured the 12AH would get me to 20 miles or so. Top speed rose to 21mph on flat road, acceleration was a bit better. Peak wattage used hit 1105 watts. I paid more attention to the power used as I rode along. 930 watts on acceleration, as little as 500 watts on level ground. This time I went to a short but steep gully in the road. It's about 1/8th mile but each side is pretty steep. I went there with the pack freshly charged. It made it up under it's own power, but not very fast. One side is steeper than the other and it slowed to about 5mph on the steep side. A gas powered scooter slows down to about 15mph on the same hill section. The packs took me 22.6 miles at a faster average speed. I used about 11.85AH out of the rated 12AH, not bad. These packs were built better than the ones from the first test. They were in plastic enclosures and the battery protection worked too well! Once they reached 33V the packs shut down totally. That caused my meter to stop displaying so my 11.85AH figure is about as close as I can estimate based on my last reading. The packs got warm, but not as hot as when I ran with just two packs. I can't be totally sure how hot they were because the batteries are encased. I may repeat the test with the cheaper, bare pack. Cheap, $20 bare pack:Better, $49 enclosed pack:One huge difference is that 12AH of lithium batteries takes up a LOT less space than three 12V SLA batteries. I could probably fit one or two more in there AND I didn't have to move the the controllers to make room for them. The great thing about the hybrid was that once the batteries had been depleted I simply started the gas engine and rode home! I should mention that a standard 36V 10AH battery pack runs over $200 from China. These were shipped from the US and the "expensive" 36V 12AH solution was $150 and the were shipped Priority Mail. The "cheap" solution was $60. More power, faster ship, and cheaper. Actually, the "cheap" solution was less than what I paid for my SLA pack.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 25, 2016 15:57:37 GMT -5
With the hills around here I would be running with electric assist if possible. When I get some "free time" I may see if I can get both systems running at the same time. If I can't find a dual control throttle for Hybrid #6, I may put a thumb throttle on the left side. This would enable me to control both motors as needed. I'll have to find where the motor controller gets its power and add my own connection and switch, separate from the hybrid control relay.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 24, 2016 23:14:30 GMT -5
There have been more than a few posts on parallel packs at Endless sphere. It all depends on the strongest pack, it will carry the load when the others die.
Most of the issues with the hover board packs happen during charging. I use a low amperage charger so that's not an issue.
The other issue is a short circuit, if the pack isn't protected.
If my math is correct I was drawing at about 3.21c. The addition of another pack should get that down to 2.24c, much more manageable.
I have some packs on the way that are enclosed in UL rated housings to protect the device. I don't know if that's going to matter much if I keep the loads to something more reasonable.
Another option would be to switch to a 500 watt controller, that would get it down to 2.1c with just two packs.
I really don't plan to ride this thing 14 miles on electric. My commute is 2 miles, my son's is 5 miles. We plan to run on gas with the hub motor as backup.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 24, 2016 20:38:13 GMT -5
I ordered a bunch of those "hover board" battery packs from ebay, you know, the ones that catch fire. They're rated between 4.0Ah and 4.4Ah. Hover board motors draw about 350 watts so I put two in parallel to make sure I could handle the 500W hub motor. I have a Tenergy Watt meter and power analyzer from my ebike so I wired it in. Wow, what a difference! The bike hit 20mph on level ground, 15mph on sections the SLA pack would only do 10mph on. This highlights the difference between the limits that SLA batteries can put out and the "c" rating of lithium based cells. The SLA pack was a higher 12Ah design compared to the 8.8Ah lithium pack. The Tenergy meter provided more insight into the actual specs of hub motor system. Here's some of what I saw: 1017 Watts peak 29.62 amps peak 8.295Ah used 281.3 watt hours The motor pulled about 840 watts in normal riding, not peak, this is what I saw every time I looked down at the meter. This tells me that the hub motor isn't the 500 watt unit, it's the later 800 watt unit. The battery packs actually put out 4.15Ah each, not bad, the sell for around $50 each on ebay. They did get pretty warm, not dangerous, but warm. Three packs would be safer, plus it adds capacity. $150 per battery pack is cheap if you plan on using the hub motor for more than short stints. If you just want it as a backup, or to use the hybrid mode, then SLA would probably be okay at half the price. The bike went 14.1 miles on the little battery packs, so a triple pack should go around 20 miles or so. You can't calculate it exactly, but that's better than I expected.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 24, 2016 10:45:07 GMT -5
Doh! So close! 13 out of 15 cells in the 48V battery are good. I'll probably add a few cells from the 36V battery to make a good working 48V LiFo pack. It will be tricky because the cells in the 48V pack are 12AH and the ones in the 36V are 5AH. Different dimensions as well. I may just hold off on it until I buy the electric scooters from the guy, if I can get them at the right price.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 23, 2016 8:39:16 GMT -5
These cells must be a different chemistry than the ones in the 36v packs. They all are taking a charge and end up around 3.1v, that would explain why it's a 15s pack. I'm not fully charging them, just putting about 400mAh in each to get them up to the nominal voltage.
I realized last night that this has morphed into a very non GY6 thread. That's just the nature of these bikes. Hopefully we can all learn a bit from my adventures. At least there will be some documentation on the off chance that someone runs into another one of these.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 23, 2016 0:24:19 GMT -5
I tore into the pack and determined that it was a 15s1p design. That's 15 x 3.6V or 54V total. That assumes they're standard LiPo pouch cells, if they're some weird ABAT concoction who knows.
The cells in this battery look REALLY good so I'm not tearing it apart. I'm charging them one at a time, hopefully I can recover all of the cells. We'll see
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 22, 2016 14:50:50 GMT -5
I popped open the battery case from #5, it's definitely a 48V bike. I counted 16 wires coming off the balance board which would make it a 57.6V battery. That must be wrong, I need to dig into it deeper. You can over-volt a hub controller, but ABAT seems too cheap to do something like that. Unless they had some 56V batteries laying around and decided to drop them in the 2009 bikes.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 22, 2016 0:14:59 GMT -5
For those of you that have never seen a LiPo battery pack: Opened pack showing pouches and balance leads: There are 20 pouch type batteries wired into 10 pairs. I have separated the pouches for individual cell testing. So far the results are not promising. I hope to recover at least 4 cells so that I can create a 36V battery using one of the old balance controllers. I removed the battery from bike #5, it's definitely larger, it barely fits in the battery box. It was tough to remove. I'll open it tomorrow to verify it's a 48V pack, but I'm certain it is. That means it probably has the 800W motor capable of around 20mph. I ordered a couple 36V "hover board" batteries. One vendor assures me that they are UL listed and they come in a hard case. The other vendor makes no such claim so I'll have to test them carefully. I have a good quality SkyRC battery tester, a real one, not the cheap clone testers. Hybrid #6 was the donor for the horn I put on #3. It's missing the throttle control and now the horn as well. The ignition lock is broken and that's a real problem. The ignition lock has the release mechanism for the seat lock built into it. If I can't find a replacement I'll have to install a different release mechanism. I'm not sure it the standard GY6 scooter ignition lock will fit on the bike, I hope so. Apparently there was another company that produced hybrid scooters. I found a CL ad for one in LA. It's a Vespa styled scooter with 10" wheels. Craigslist AdPicture: There's another Veken for sale in Nashville with only 3.8 miles on it. It's the only other Veken I could find for sale Craigslist Veken
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 21, 2016 23:51:20 GMT -5
Hybrid #3 sorted completely, horn replaced, SLA pack installed, everything works as it should. It's up for sale Right Side Left Side Front
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 20, 2016 4:48:58 GMT -5
Hybrid #5 is a different bike from all the rest, it may be a 2009 model with a 48V hub motor! This one will probably end up being my bike when all is said and done. The battery pack looks larger than the 36V bikes, I won't know for sure until I get it out. This requires loosening/removing body panels to get it out. It's a really tight fit. The battery appears to have a minimal charge on it, not enough to move it, but enough to register with the battery level LEDs. I may have to rebuild this pack, I don't see how I can fit a 48V SLA pack in there. The 36V battery pack is a 10s2p design. That's 10 pairs of LiPo cells in series for those of you unfamiliar with lithium batteries. The pack from bike #1 only had 6 LiPo pouches that would hold a charge, the rest are dead. Bike #2 had no battery pack. Bike #3's pack is unknown so far, I only removed it yesterday. It only has 5 miles on the odometer, yeah 5, sweet! The signal light design is nicer, in my opinion. They are separate from the headlight and easier to see. Here's a picture of a similar bike from the Abat pages, Oh, the bike is labeled Abat, not Veken:
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 20, 2016 4:18:20 GMT -5
Hybrid #3 is pretty well sorted as well. I'll add pictures in a bit.
This one is black and in pretty good condition, no real scratches, under 200 miles on the odometer, all the body panels were in place on it as well as a dead lithium battery pack.
New intake, carburetor, fuel and vacuum hoses, 12V battery, and gas were all it took to get it running, and it runs well.
The only thing not working is the horn. Probably something simple like a disconnected cable.
I need to build a battery pack for it, I may go with lithium on this one just to do a comparison.
This one is too pretty to keep, once I build a battery I put it up for sale, like the blue bike. I still have my SLA pack from my old eBike, I'll drop that in for testing.
I'm going to have to start referring to these bikes by number now that I have a few running. The first four are registered to me, I wanted to make sure I could register them due to some problems I had with the local RMV in the past.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 20, 2016 3:55:32 GMT -5
Final testing of the blue bike:
1) The vacuum controlled petcock was defective, that's why it was running lean. Now it runs great, more power than ever. The engine has low miles, 32, so it will get even better as it breaks in.
2) The hub motor will power it up a reasonable hill on it's own, not fast, but it does work. 5-7mph if I recall
3) The "Mix" mode works just like a hybrid should, at least as far as I know.
a)It starts off in electric mode b)The gas engine starts at about 5-7mph It uses short bursts of the starter to get the engine running, with pauses to see if it's running. c) Once the engine is running the hub motor circuit shuts off d) The engine charges the battery once you get to 23mph or so. There is a series of LEDs to indicate the charging status/36V battery level e) The engine shuts off when the bike comes to a start and you repeat the above cycle.
4) The whole system works MUCH better if you warm up the engine before taking off. This allows the engine to start on the first try. I found that if I backed off on the throttle as it tries to start it works better as well. That's because the GY6 doesn't always like to start with the throttle open.
5) The throttle is a combination gas and electric throttle. This will be an issue for one of the bikes, the throttle is missing! That's a real pain because that bike only has 4 miles on the odometer.
6) There is virtually no trunk space. The gas tank is under the seat, in the deepest part of the space, not the best design.
7) The frame is more complicated than a "typical" 49cc scooter to accommodate the 36V battery, control boxes, and hub motor. This makes working on the engine a real pain. Frame members block access to some of the bolts on the engine.
8) It's not an open scooter design due to the battery/control box location. You mount it like a motorcycle by swinging a leg over the top of the seat.
9) It's a much better ride than my Taotao and Linhai scooters. The combination of the 14" wheels, longer frame, wider body, and larger seat works great. It feels more like a small motorcycle than a scooter.
10) It's a taller bike than my other GY6 scooters. Better for me, but impossible for my 5'1" wife to handle.
11) The speedometer and odometer are in miles, not the usual kilometer/miles format found on many Chinese scooters.
I must say that now that I have the systems sorted I really like these scooters. Two of them will definitely be making their way into my fleet. The Linhai will be sold to make room for one. I'll end up with my daughter's pink Taotao, a custom painted Taotao for my wife to ride, and a hybrid for my son and I. This is tough in a one car garage with a car parked in it! The '68 Fiat Coupe will have to move forward a bit more to allow for the bikes to park behind it.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 18, 2016 19:08:22 GMT -5
Okay, we can stop thinking about the hub motor. I put a 15AH battery pack on the bike ... 15mph on flat level ground. It's slows to 10mph on a minor incline. A 500 watt motor is just not enough for what amounts to about 400 lbs. I'm a bit under 210lbs. and the bike weighs around 200 on it's own.
Once I get it running well on gas I may try it on a bigger hill in hub motor only mode. I'm not sure it can make it up.
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Post by dachurchpcguy on Jul 18, 2016 11:37:22 GMT -5
A little microcontroller like a Raspberry Pi or Arduino could help override or customize the setup. That would indeed be possible but it would add another layer of complexity. 1) The simpler solution would be to have a mechanical switch to enable the hub motor when in "Engine" mode, you'd probably need a relay as well. 2) An alternative would be to wire in another motor control in parallel to the existing unit. This would be cheaper than pi but it would require a bunch of connectors. Solution 1 looks like the way to go, if I wanted to bother with it. The one wrench in the system is that the engine charges the battery once you get about 20 mph or so. There's a series of lights that light up as the charge level increases. I don't think it would be a real problem since we're only talking about 2 amps or so.
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