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Post by fe53series3 on May 2, 2015 14:29:44 GMT -5
Went for a spin with my son yesterday evening..... him on the MX50 me on the FE53. Great fun  I was able to pull alongside him initially...... that shocked him...... and me too  He then pulled away; but even still...... loved it! This morning I figured, let's start as we mean to go on...... and I got down to fitting the airbox. It just needed an extension bracket, and a 'conical to tube' piece from a toilet cistern, to join the carb to the airbox. I returned to close to the original setup position with an A13 N5, main jet 105, and a 32 idle jet. It ran okayish, but it felt strangled. The problem is that the airbox is strangling the motor. It's inlet is 19mm, and outlet 32mm. I think it will have been fine with the little Gurtner carb, but with the PHBN 16, it just can't suck the volume, that would then normally be compressed through the carb throat (to increase the air density). In effect, the inlet diameter is choking the motor, rather than the air filter itself. Here's what it looks like:  I propose to drill additional holes here:  These holes will be at the bottom of the air box...... I don't see anywhere else to add them. There's no point in continuing with the setup, until I've solved this choking problem. The Twin Air filter will be fine..... I'm pretty sure that I just need more inlet area. The carb outlet throat is: 20mm D = 314mm sq The AM6 airbox has two 16mm D inlets totalling 402mm So I need at least that. Current airbox inlet area = 284mm sq The thing about airboxes, is that they need to be designed to allow the perfect charge of air to 'hum' through the system in perfect resonance. When you start examining air flow at say 10k RPM...... it's like madness. 167 packets of air passed every second to the motor. No wonder you need it tuned to perfection. The problem is that the airbox on the FE53 is a bit on the small size, without it's primary airbox, which attaches to what the above pic shows as the inlet. So I'm not going to attempt any calculation at the moment. I think, at this stage, I just need to get the motor breathing freely, and running through a filter. I'm open to any other suggestions...... but at the moment, I'm thinking of drilling two 10mm holes = 157mm sq. This will provide a total airbox inlet of 440mm sq. Ie. it may not provide the correct resonance....... but it will guarantee that the motor can breathe freely. At least, it surely must be better than a crappy pod filter. |
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Post by fe53series3 on May 3, 2015 8:09:00 GMT -5
Air Box Inlet ExpansionI managed to find a 20mm flat wood drill, so bored out the main inlet by 1mm, and drilled 2 off 10.5mm additional holes at the bottom of the air box cover. It worked in as much as the motor regained its responsiveness. The sole 19mm inlet was definitely throttling the engine. I'll leave it at that, and tune around it. The awful carb roar has gone, and at least now, the engine and carb is protected from dust. Front Fork Lower RaceWatch out!....... when removing, or dropping the forks. I discovered that the lower race consists of loose ball bearings, sitting in a split upper and lower groove. If they have lacked maintenance (grease)..... they drop out. I think I got them all........ 28 ball bearings in total. After washing off the balls, and two halves, I smeared grease into the top half, lodging it high out of the way with the brake hose. Grease was smeared onto the lower half....... then individually, the balls were pushed into the grease...... then the upper half was dropped down to lock them in place. Front Fork Top RaceThis was a caged ball bearing race, so it was just a wash off and re-grease. Fork Threaded ShaftAttention!....... the threaded shaft is slotted on both sides. I found that the locking dogs on the handlebar mount, had deformed the threads at the slot. During initial dismantling, prior to unwinding the top half of the upper race, I filed the threads across the slots. This allowed the top race to be wound out using pipe grips, reforming the threads (with a lubricant). I then ran it up and down, to get the threads running smoothly again. It's definitely a weak point in the design. The bar mount dogs were also bent to one side, so the handlebars are not square to the front wheel. There was not really a lot I could do...... bending them back would simply weaken them. The dogs are just too weak. It really needs an additional steel plate making, with new dogs, and welded in place. It's not a major problem..... just annoying that the bars are a bit skewed. Oh yes..... the top nut is 1 1/4"...... so 32mm Thankfully I had a 1 1/4" socket. AssemblyI tightened the top race down till resistance, and applied just the smallest amount of pressure (using pipe grips). There was no juddering as the forks swung left and right...... if there's juddering, then the races are too tight. Took it for a spin...... it's now precise through bends, and no brake judder.
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Post by 90GTVert on May 3, 2015 8:14:03 GMT -5
Excellent updates as always.
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Post by fe53series3 on May 3, 2015 19:23:44 GMT -5
Okay, at last some images to help with the identification: From member contributions, we're thinking this Peugeot is based upon a Dio...... may have a Dio engine..... or possibly a licenced remake of the Dio.   Note Air box just fits The carb cable elbow just needs opening by another 15 degrees...... it's fine, but annoying. Oh!.... and note the minimalist choke actuator  Really pleased... the hammerite paint has stayed on the exhaust all the way to the manifold. A bit of discolouration but an amazing success   Speedo drive has stopped working..... speedo moves when cable is spun.... but the drive doesn't turn the cable anymore.... need to remove the wheel again tomorrow to find out what is wrong.  Here is the tacho that I've fitted, to help tune the engine.  |
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Post by fe53series3 on May 4, 2015 10:55:42 GMT -5
Variator Drive Examination
I think I've found the reason for the delayed launch!
I stripped the movable drive face today.
The rollers were not in their slots, but were mixed up.
The plastic covers on all but one, were extremely flatted by a wearing action.
Each roller weight is 9 grams.
Attention!...... When installing the roller assembly onto the crank...... keep the cover plate pressed over the rollers, until the belt and other half of the pulley is in place...... otherwise the rollers can fall out of their slots.
The pulley faces had some corrosion, but were also highly polished.
I guess that is normal, but I've cleaned them up, and broke the glaze as per 90GTVert's video instruction.
I've put the rollers back in, but I'll order a replacement kit...... presumably 9 grams is correct - does anybody know?
The drive belt is marked up as 18mm - it measures to 17.3mm, so I guess that is within tolerance.
Heres the vid showing the rollers and pulley faces:
Test Run
Launch is much better now.
It still isn't perfect, but when you consider the state of the rollers, that is understandable.
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Post by Elektrey on May 4, 2015 11:57:08 GMT -5
rollers you could try going lighter or heavier to tune it into the powerband.
you could buy a new belt and see improved top end.
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Post by fe53series3 on May 4, 2015 14:44:57 GMT -5
rollers you could try going lighter or heavier to tune it into the powerband. you could buy a new belt and see improved top end. I've been reading up on the role of rollers...... very interesting...... apparently they're almost like gears, so I now understand what you are saying Pedparts believes that there is one good weight for the 'state of tune': www.pedparts.co.uk/blog/moped-tuning--rollersThe weights they quote are much lighter than the 9 grams...... but I also note from their graph, that the lighter the weight, the more 'revvy' the engine should be. At this moment, I'm 'tuning around the stock pipe and silencer'. This must be a limiting factor. BTW thanks for taking the time to follow the thread, and push this issue to the fore. There are lots of things to say about this (particularly with this quasi-gearing understanding)  Perhaps if we get to the basics, it will helpAssuming the airbox is now breathing fine; the needle and jetting is still to be determined. The fact is.... that I had to be a bit responsible, and check out the drive, and fork bearings etc. (while the scoot was a freebie....... it still has potential). The speedo is stuffed...... but we do now have a tacho and I believe that this is going to be the key 'tuning gauge'. In fact, it may prove even easier (as a gauge) than monitoring 3rd, 4th, 5th gear performance. It appears that the variomatic system achieves its top gearing (per roller weight) and then requires a rise in RPM to increase speed. (so says Pedparts) On my last run, I noted that the motor settled to 7,800 RPM. There was still a 25% throttle dead zone, so there is definitely more to come. What that will produce re RPM is not clear.... the last 25% always has the least impact, what with wind resistance, and the top arc of the carb throat. So... from what you're saying (I believe, as a noob in these matters)....... I really could do with a range of rollers, to try to find the 'gearing' (?) that will match the pipe, and the carb tune that I can deliver. Well........ your post tipped me into taking a gamble  Whilst writing this post, I paused, to bid on 10 sets of rollers: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/JOB-LOT-SCOOTER-VARIATOR-ROLLERS-/231545562385?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item35e930e511&autorefresh=truI won! I left it until the dying seconds, and got the job lot for £5.50....... including postage...... around 550 grams..... £11.30. Nice! That's $1.70 per set, delivered chez moi What chance that.... just when I needed them? No haters we all need a bit of luck now and again Don't forget...... they could all be the wrong size, and I'll have to mod them (I hope not). So it looks like I'm going to be able to run with your suggestion. How cool is that? More to come on this topic, when they arrive..... all ten packets of them (Jammy twat or what?) |
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Post by Florida Antique on May 4, 2015 15:41:34 GMT -5
Usually from what I understand, the thing that holds the RPM down on these little 2 stroke engines, is the pipe. The factories tune these pipes so they will lose horsepower at the top end to keep the engines more reliable. You can do anything you want to the variator weights, clutch spring, driven pully spring and it will only affect the launch and shift points. If you want more MPH, you have to spin the back wheel faster. Either through RPM (with a pipe tuned to give more high RPM horsepower) or through a gearing change. Depending on the scooter, gears may be hard to come by so your best bet may be a tuned pipe.
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Post by fe53series3 on May 4, 2015 17:07:31 GMT -5
A Personal VoyageYes, you are certainly correct. The exhaust is the limiting factor. However, vis a vis a replacement exhaust (expansion pipe & silencer) the perspective that I'm taking is understandable (if you consider it). Primarily, it's worth taking into account that I have a full driving licence..... so I can ride any bike..... prior to the MX50 and FE53, my previous bike was a Triumph T160V, and before that, a Commando. Therefore the direct need for pure speed, could be circumvented by simply acquiring a bigger engined bike. Also.....I'm not saying that an expansion pipe is out of the question, but....... have a look at the pics above This is a 1994 scoot........ the plastic bodywork has been subject to 21 years of UV light. Vis a vis money pits..... it could be the epitome of the 'black hole of nothingness'....... effectively without spending limits. I think it was runningbuck that said: "gotta love cheap scoots"Well they don't get any cheaper than it being a payment for a ten minute job So... what IS in my head, when I get on the scoot, and go for a blast? Putting my psychiatrist hat on...... I guess it's personal satisfaction. The scoot was dead, and I got it running. The brakes didn't work - fixed. The carb was knackered...... I modified a spare carb to fit, using a bit of spare steel.Fork bearings shite.... fixed. The exhaust..... .... This was pretty much the first component I worked on (first post in this thread). Cured with phosphoric acid, and painted with hammerite...... which has survived  It''s gonna be hard to get rid of this exhaust I'm sure that the time will come, but there are so many things to do on the bike before that. Mostly it's about having fun with it. The rules aren't written in stone....... I had to buy new rollers..... so getting a whole load of them, should mean that I can match the gearing to the max tune that I can achieve. I think once that's done...... I'll strip it down, sort all the things I'm not happy with, and give it a paint job. Maybe that will be the time to move on to achieve peak performance....... maybe even a pic in 'Scooter Pics & Video' But at the mo, I'm making do with fixing the basics, like bearings, brakes, and drive etc. Just gotta look at the back brake...... then it will be back to tuning again...... hopefully with half a kilo of roller weights at my disposal.
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Post by Elektrey on May 4, 2015 19:33:46 GMT -5
nice find on the rollers. You will have a good assortment to tune and change out when your build changes so you can retune easily.
A few things that can help you tune the CVT:
do you know where your powerband lies?
do you know your shifting pattern currently? (for example mine at the moment is starts shifting at 8k then slowly moves up to 9-9.3k and runs out of gearing (i.e. continues past 9.3k))
remember you can mix weights, just alternate them, so if you have 10g and 5g you can effectively get 7.5g
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Post by Florida Antique on May 5, 2015 10:11:52 GMT -5
Sorry, thought you were looking for a higher top end. As it is you are basically in the same boat as me. I got a '83 Honda Aero 80 and fixed it up to run and look good. I too am running the stock exhaust (after clearing out the gunk) and it is good till about 8K RPM. I am not planning on changing my pipe because A:It would probably make the scooter louder, and B:Expansion chambers for 33 year old Honda Scooters are hard to come by in the US. I do need to play with my variator weights, however. Originally Honda put a thick grease in their clutches, to overcome the thick grease, the weights in my clutch are 16 grams. I removed the grease from the clutch and get a much more positive shift point but it is now too low in the RPM so my next project will be to experiment with the different weight rollers to see if I can get it to shift more in the power band like you want to do.
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Post by 90GTVert on May 6, 2015 6:50:35 GMT -5
I know that some claim there's 1 correct weight to use, but IMO in the real world there's compromise unless you are lucky enough to have an engine and CVT combination that never strays from the powerband at any time. Sometimes I prefer to use lighter weights that will get the revs up quickly for more fun when I'm on and off of the throttle a lot. Sometimes I'll sacrifice some response so I can get more speed with heavier weights. Generally I settle somewhere in the middle so I'm not losing much or any belt travel and MPH and not suffering from great amounts of lag waiting on the powerband when I get on the throttle.  |
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Post by fe53series3 on May 6, 2015 14:41:45 GMT -5
nice find on the rollers. You will have a good assortment to tune and change out when your build changes so you can retune easily. A few things that can help you tune the CVT: do you know where your powerband lies? do you know your shifting pattern currently? (for example mine at the moment is starts shifting at 8k then slowly moves up to 9-9.3k and runs out of gearing (i.e. continues past 9.3k)) remember you can mix weights, just alternate them, so if you have 10g and 5g you can effectively get 7.5g Yes...... hopefully I'll have a good assortment to tune with..... but let's see what arrives.... don't forget it was a 'job lot'. Re powerband..... that's a really good point! I've been like a fish out of water there, cos the variator gearing changes with the revs. However, at about 6k, it seems to be in top, and the bike then accelerates with revs. The thing is, that it's so different to me, that it was only today, when I began to think about it, after servicing the rear brake. Now that I've got the bike running correctly..... I am very interested in how this will pan out. Note: until I've got actually 'round rollers' fitted, the story remains unclear. I think we'll need to revisit this topic at that point (which should be any day now).
Yes, I noted that the Peugeot manual states that earlier models had greased rollers With a bit of luck, my testing with a good range, may help your decision making process. And expanding upon that point:
How I interpreted the Pedparts article, was that the '1 correct weight' related to a particular tune. Ie. where the engine power band exists. If the engine is set up to deliver power at 10k to 11.5k...... then the rollers should be chosen to allow the bike to access those revs, at the time when they can be used. That of course is theory....... I'm hopefully going to find out..... and I'll relate those experiences here With the exhaust I've got (and keeping for the time being), my guess is that power will drop off before I hit 10k. At the mo, with current sliders (not rollers) the max revs is around 7.75k I think my first task will be to adjust the rollers, to find the usable powerband, while getting to the powerband remains nice and nifty. This should provide me with a very clear tuning guide. If the bike won't rev past 9k in top gear....... modification to the carburation could be judged simply by an increase in revs. At any rate..... that's my current thinking. We are just gonna have to wait till the rollers arrive....... by this weekend surely |
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Post by Elektrey on May 6, 2015 14:47:08 GMT -5
when you say
kind of confused. You suspect your peak power to be at 6k? Or you mean that its slow to move untill it hits 6k then starts to accelerate? If so you really need your CVT tuned so that it starts shifting from the getgo at 6k and then keeps it at 6k for as long as possible, i.e. untill it goes to the highest gear possible.
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Post by fe53series3 on May 6, 2015 15:10:05 GMT -5
when you say kind of confused. You suspect your peak power to be at 6k? Or you mean that its slow to move untill it hits 6k then starts to accelerate? If so you really need your CVT tuned so that it starts shifting from the getgo at 6k and then keeps it at 6k for as long as possible, i.e. untill it goes to the highest gear possible. No, it's not that I suspect anything yet. This is the first variator that I've owned, so I'm merely observing, until my rollers arrive. In fact, it was only on this last run that I started thinking about the gearing in these terms. The next time I ride it (tomorrow), I will try to concentrate on what is exactly happening, as I open the throttle. What I do know, is that the bike now has drive at a slightly lower speed (than before tidying the drive system). The thing is...... I'm not gonna start carrying a notebook yet, cos the rollers are anyway completely shagged. Primarily.... I just need to get my head around how the gearing works with the revs. Once we have a new set of rollers installed, then I can start logging the revs at launch etc. against specific roller weights. It could be really interesting. Let's just hope that the range of roller weights is good. But as you said in your earlier post..... by mixing and matching, I should have a good range of options. |
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