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Post by FrankenMech on Sept 23, 2017 0:08:30 GMT -5
I haven't been able to get my Ranger pickup to start recently. It has been down for a series of frame mount repairs, suspension, brakes, exhaust, etc. I found that the fuel pump wasn't working. I have the bed off so it was easy to pull the fuel pump assy out. At least what was left of it. It was completely eaten up with rust. Even the brass float was half gone. I made a new float from a polypropylene pill bottle and installed another fuel pump. I installed the assy back in the tank to seal the opening. I went back a week later and found that the new pump was nearly as rusty as the old one. A little internet searching came up with a cause: Acetic acid. One article said: "Ethanol attracts water. When the two get together, they create the perfect environment to grow a type of bacteria called acetobacter. After getting drunk on their EPA-sponsored kegger in your gas tank, the acetobacter excrete acetic acid. And acetic acid is very corrosive." E-10 Alive: The corrosive damage ethanol gasoline does to your fuel pump | Equipment World | Construction Equipment, News and Information | Heavy Construction Equipment www.equipmentworld.com/e-10-alive-the-corrosive-damage-ethanol-gasoline-does-to-your-fuel-pump/My fuel assy looked worse than the one in the article. I guess the bacteria have to pee after they have their brewski just like people. I must have a lot of acetic acid in that tank to corrode the fuel pump that quick. I have filled the tank with water and some Castrol Super Clean (CSC) to see if I can wash it out. When The water overflowed the tank a lot of bacterial slime like curdled milk washed out also. It will take a lot of cleaning to get all the mess out. CSC is pretty caustic so it should neutralize the acid. Thankfully the tank is plastic and not metal. I will replace the entire fuel pump assy this time. They are $40 from China via amazon. I could buy the same thing in a name brand also manufactured in China for ~$65 or so. $25 for a different name on the box but looks the same. On scoots that acetic acid apparently eats paper fuel filters and will corrode the hell out of the carb. I knew that water in the fuel would rot the paper fuel filters and cause the sintered brass ones to corrode. I just didn't know the name of the bacteria responsible. |
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Post by spaz12 on Sept 23, 2017 0:25:56 GMT -5
That ethanol isn't in super unleaded, is it?
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Post by gsx600racer on Sept 23, 2017 0:39:12 GMT -5
That ethanol isn't in super unleaded, is it?  |
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Post by FrankenMech on Sept 23, 2017 1:27:47 GMT -5
Unless the fuel is labeled as 100% gasoline it probably contains ethanol. In some states the legislatures have mandated that all gasoline will contain 10% ethanol in order to placate the farm lobby and fill their own pockets.
Many states do not require fuel pumps to say there is ethanol in the fuel. I have heard that some states prohibit a sign like the one pictured above.
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Post by bluegoatwoods on Sept 23, 2017 5:57:33 GMT -5
Yikes.
There are only a few gas stations within my area that sell any pure gasoline. And none of them are convenient for me. Bad traffic for a scooter. Stuff like that. So I've been taking my chances with ethanol.
I guess that I"ll have to live on the hope that since we fill these tanks a great deal more often maybe these bacteria will have a harder time getting a foothold.
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Post by knobby on Sept 23, 2017 13:58:59 GMT -5
Yes it can eat holes right through metal.. thick aluminum or steel too. Plastic, rubber, fiber gaskets, it can destroy anything. There are chemicals you can add to your gas to suck up the moisture and keep it from combining with the ethanol, but they cost money. Good thing is, if its a once a month kind of joy ride car the cost actually doesn't work out too badly. And if its a daily, then you wont need it. I guess its that in between zone car that is the worst... not driven quite enough but driven enough that additive cost is too high to be burning it up.
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Natey
Scoot Member
Posts: 34 
Location: Santa Cruz Ca
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Post by Natey on Sept 23, 2017 14:05:49 GMT -5
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Post by aeroxbud on Sept 23, 2017 15:16:50 GMT -5
We have the same thing in the U.K. Now. You never used to get it in premium, but it's in everything now.
The classic car magazines have been saying for ages, if your storing your vehicle for more than a few weeks, use a fuel stabilizer.
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Post by FrankenMech on Sept 23, 2017 16:48:45 GMT -5
There are studies out there on fuel stabilizers and ethanol. They will help for a while but in the end the alcohol and water will win and you get bacterial growth. The only safe thing to do is drain the tank and system. It is easy on scoots with a gravity fuel system but not so easy on fuel pump style systems with no drain like cars and trucks.
As long as you run the vehicle and use up the fuel frequently it seems to reduce the bacterial action. Unfortunately the water still causes corrosion and other things. The alcohol also attacks the rubber fuel system components. The alcohol causes swelling of the rubber and cracking which releases small chunks of the rubber into the fuel system. Those rubber chunks can block jets etc. The cracking can cause leaks for fuel and vacuum. If you look closely at rubber parts you can see what looks like tiny square cracks in the surface in a chessboard style pattern caused by the swelling from ethanol.
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Post by niz76 on Sept 23, 2017 23:52:51 GMT -5
Great. While the drunk little suckers are getting piss drunk and having fun, we gotta finance their destructive partying! lol. Great read Franken.
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Post by FrankenMech on Sept 24, 2017 16:11:19 GMT -5
I am still hosing my tank out repeatedly with water and super clean then draining it with a siphon pump. There is still bacterial slime showing up. I am not sure how I am going to get the bottom of the tank clean. It has lots of rust flakes and crap down there. Some of the crap is probably from purchased fuel but the other is from the rusted pump assy. There is also nylon from the fuel pump sock that disintegrated. I may be able to use a shop vac once any trace of gas fumes is gone. My nose is not the best so if you don't hear from me...
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Post by ThaiGyro on Sept 26, 2017 2:47:41 GMT -5
On someone else's thread, there was a discussion regarding fuel system cleaning. Vinegar contains about 4% acetic acid and is great for breaking down rust...I use it for cleaning used tanks on old scoots and motorcycles, because it is super cheap and very effective.
Problem is, that you must immediately then coat the inside, if it's steel, or passivate the "pickled" surfaces, which is more complicated and a bit temporary. (High pH, ammonia compounds, high temps)
Coatings, like some of those plastic goo's are OK, but expensive and hard to ensure you have coated evenly and well. The usual route is "zinc phosphating" after rust removal, where a dilution of heated phosphoric acid liquid is sprayed or a part dipped into it. (It reacts/combines with surface iron) Ask your friends at the UAW. That process is used on nearly all steel body parts in cars and trucks...often barrier coated afterward as an extra measure. (urethane painted or plastic coating)
On your truck, since it has a larger tank, you can try a small fuel/water separator. Not only do they work well, but you can check them and drain the water. Diesels have them. Water content in the fuels, unfortunately is not in your control at the gas pump...it's from poor storage. Especially in above ground tanks. But you can trap it out! It will always be at the bottom. If you store the truck for any length of time, drain any water first.
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Post by FrankenMech on Sept 26, 2017 3:49:59 GMT -5
I have used vinegar and water with a quantity of nuts and bolts to scrub out rusty fuel tanks. It is expensive to have them coated but plastic sealants are available from many sources.
The tank on my truck is plastic. The only problem is the steel fuel lines if any. Hopefully there is little damage in them. I can't say as much for the fuel pump assy. It was steel with steel lines and it is heavily damaged. I have a new one already.
I have access to some old glass bowl fuel filters but they probably won't take the fuel pressure in the injector system. I could probably put one on the tank return line though. Thanks for that idea. The truck tank is not equipped with a drain.
Ethanol is hygroscopic so it attracts water all through the transport and storage systems. Water vapor enters the tank through the fuel filler hose and even the polypropylene used in fuel tanks. Almost all plastics are permeable to water.
The new plastic fuel cans are a nightmare with ethanol fuel. I use a 5 gallon plastic can for 100% pure gasoline for my scoot. I have a metal can for my ethanol fuel.
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Post by ThaiGyro on Sept 27, 2017 0:08:03 GMT -5
You are right about the ethanol grabbing water, (hygroscopic) but if your accumulation is too high, (high humidity) or too fast, (bad fuel from gas station)...it can/will reach saturation, so excess water sinks to the bottom and micro-bugs grow. If the fluid is just sitting relatively still, then nothing good happens. If you live in cold, near freezing weather, the problem can exist as you stated.
I think my Cummins had a "spitter" on the tank bottom, not on either HP or LP line. Not sure if sensor operated. Never thought much about it, though I did get a load of saturated diesel once.
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Post by FrankenMech on Sept 27, 2017 14:40:12 GMT -5
It does not have to be cold or sitting still to have water and bacteria accumulate in the tank. Any fuel tank that is not flushed out frequently with new fuel can accumulate water and bacteria. Even frequent flushing can fail to alleviate the problem. The water is heavy and will accumulate at the bottom of the tank where the in-tank fuel pumps will not always pick it up. Agitation from movement will help pick up the water. An occasional misfire from water in the fuel will not be noticed by the operator or engine management computers.
It has been reported that the inline fuel filters in fuel injected vehicles are experiencing problems. Many people here on 49ccScoot have experienced clogged fuel filters. Paper fuel filters are a place where moisture accumulates and saturates the paper element. The water saturating the paper element can block fuel flow and also cause rot in the paper element which can perforate the element. Fragments of rotted paper element can clog up jets and orifices in the carb or injectors.
I once got a load of 'gasoline' that was 1/3 water judging by the size of the chunk of ice that was in my gas tank.
Here in KC it is quite common to get water saturated fuel. I keep a reserve bottle of fuel on my scoot that is made from stainless steel. It is very shiny inside. When I am out riding and have to refuel I dump the reserve bottle in my tank before fueling. I can then squirt a little fuel from the pump into the bottle and look inside to see if there is any water in the fuel. If there is water I have enough fuel to ride to another station and test again before filling my tank.
Fuel storage here is also a problem due to the preponderance of plastic fuel jugs nowadays. Plastic fuel jugs will not keep water out of the fuel. Water vapor will penetrate the plastic and saturate the fuel mixture.
I will remove my truck's used fuel filter and flush the fuel system with fresh 100% gasoline before I replace the filter with a new one and start the engine. The truck engine will run with the 100% gasoline premium fuel.
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