Triton # 2 (T2) 49cc to 110cc & Nearly Everywhere In Between

[repherence2]

How about using a 1/8" spring pin or roll pin for the impeller shaft? The downside is that it might be difficult to remove the pin.

As for the direct drive pin slot, you could make a jig to mount the direct drive piece to the tool post. Chuck the 1/8" burr in the lathe chuck and use the cross slide to do the slot. You could start from the center bore on the direct drive and "mill" outwards from there. You can "mill" the groove so that the pin is still captured by the direct drive piece. In essence, you'd be using the lathe as a mill. Instead of the mill table moving, the lathe carriage and cross slide become the mill table.

[90GTVert]

Apr 8, 2019 20:52:31 GMT -5 repherence2 said:

How about using a 1/8" spring pin or roll pin for the impeller shaft? The downside is that it might be difficult to remove the pin.

I'm just trying to figure out what will be strong. I don't think it's going anywhere if I can keep the ends closed on the adapter and it's in there deep enough. Just wondering if it will snap.

An 1/8" drill bit is a better fit through the impeller shaft than the pin. The pin measures 0.1179" and the drill bit measures 0.1243". Some sort of 1/8" pin would be good. Anyone know if grade 2 or 5 titanium 1/8" rod would be good for something like this? It's not really expensive. I don't know enough about metals to know what's best suited. In a PM, ryan_ott wondered if even something like aluminum that would be more prone to bend instead of snap would be good?






The hex steel showed up a couple of days ago. I cut and faced 2 pieces. I was planning to make one for Ryan while I'm making one for myself.




I got one for myself drilled and tapped to M12x1.25. I wanted to find out for sure what thread Ryan needed, so I PMed him. Ended up being M10x1.25. Along the way, he mentioned the Zuma vs clone case depth difference. He took some measurements and I ended up deciding to make another aluminum prototype to check. I had Zuma cases and crank here from spaz12 and a flywheel from a Vino 5BM engine.




I just slid the aluminum adapter that I already had on the Zuma engine first. It was clear that it was too short and the difference was more than I wanted to rely on for washers/shims.






Ryan and I were discussing the adapter a bit, so before I moved on I went ahead and shaped the rest of my steel adapter.






When I made the Zuma test adapter, I drilled through for the pin slot as Ryan suggested at one point. That made it a pretty quick job to cut through to the top with a drill.






I found that a little over 34mm adapter length was short enough to let me bolt on the water pump housing to the Yamaha cases. Talked to Ryan a bit more about what he had. Ended up going with 32.5mm, the number he gave me in the first place. Here are the Yamaha and clone adapters side by side.




Here's the fit of the Yamaha adapter after cutting to 32.5mm.




I put about a 2mm spacer under the adapter and checked it out. That made light contact with the pump housing, but would turn. At least I know it can be spaced out a little if needed. It should also be OK if the housing is spaced away a little.




I got the steel version of the Zuma adapter as ready as I could get it ATM.






Both adapters are waiting on the pin groove to be cut. One of the parts that I ordered is delayed in the shipping process according to the tracking number.

[90GTVert]

From here : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titanium_alloy
"Grade 5 also known as Ti6Al4V, Ti-6Al-4V or Ti 6-4
is the most commonly used alloy. It has a chemical composition of 6% aluminum, 4% vanadium, 0.25% (maximum) iron, 0.2% (maximum) oxygen, and the remainder titanium.[8] It is significantly stronger than commercially pure titanium while having the same stiffness and thermal properties (excluding thermal conductivity, which is about 60% lower in Grade 5 Ti than in CP Ti).[9] Among its many advantages, it is heat treatable. This grade is an excellent combination of strength, corrosion resistance, weld and fabricability.
"This alpha-beta alloy is the workhorse alloy of the titanium industry. The alloy is fully heat treatable in section sizes up to 15 mm and is used up to approximately 400 °C (750 °F). Since it is the most commonly used alloy – over 70% of all alloy grades melted are a sub-grade of Ti6Al4V, its uses span many aerospace airframe and engine component uses and also major non-aerospace applications in the marine, offshore and power generation industries in particular."[10]

"Applications: Blades, discs, rings, airframes, fasteners, components. Vessels, cases, hubs, forgings. Biomedical implants."[8]

Generally, Ti-6Al-4V is used in applications up to 400 degrees Celsius. It has a density of roughly 4420 kg/m3, Young's modulus of 120 GPa, and tensile strength of 1000 MPa.[11] By comparison, annealed type 316 stainless steel has a density of 8000 kg/m3, modulus of 193 GPa, and tensile strength of 570 MPa.[12] Tempered 6061 aluminium alloy has a density of 2700 kg/m3, modulus of 69 GPa, and tensile strength of 310 MPa, respectively."

From McMaster-Carr :
"Yield Strength: 120,000 psi
Hardness: Rockwell C30 (Hard)
Temper Rating: Softened (Annealed)
Specifications Met: ASTM B348
Grade 5 is the strongest of all the titanium alloys thanks to its higher aluminum and vanadium content. It offers a versatile mix of good corrosion resistance, weldability, and formability. It's often used for turbine blades, fasteners, and spacer rings."

I looked around and ended up ordering a foot of it from McMaster-Carr for $8.58. Tossed in some F-4040-A Tygon while I was at it. Shipping will prob be higher than I'd like. The stuff I initially saw on eBay for under $10 shipped was grade 2.

[oldgeek]

I have been following the build of this water pump and the issues that have been encountered. I have not ever worked with one so I had to read and reread and look at the pictures several times to understand its operation. It seems there are pump 2 drive types? 1 with rubber drive pins and a plastic drive ring, and another that uses a direct drive coupler with a pin and an adapter.

I have been reluctant to comment about something I have never worked with, but I see a huge problem with the direct drive design versus the rubber pin and plastic coupler design. Alignment. Alignment will be super critical in the direct drive assembly. Think about the crankshaft centerline and the pump shaft centerline and how the slightest misalignment on either axis will affect that junction. I am not saying you wont make it work, but I am just trying to help.

At the amusement park I once worked at there was a ride that had a big electric motor and 2 hydraulic pumps, one connected directly to each end of the electric motor. a few times the motor had to be replaced, or one of the pumps had to be replaced. The guys would be out there for hours and hours, sometimes over a couple days loosening mounting bolts and shifting the motor and pump alignment until it did not vibrate so bad that you could not walk on the platform. One day a guy visited the park offering laser alignment for things such as the motor and pump system I am talking about. They took him out to the ride to show him the setup. He took one look and listen to it running and said he could make it much better and would do this one for free. The mechanics were reluctant to let him try, but they loosened all mounts up and let him go at it. In about 2 hours they had it running so quiet the maintenance manager did not believe it was running from where he was standing out in the midway! Needless to say the "alignment guy" picked up a new customer that day.

[90GTVert]

I thought about alignment, but I guess I'm just hoping it works. I don't think it's gonna be such a tight fit like what I'd think of as a true direct coupling (no individual movement) so maybe that will be good enough. As long as it doesn't blow apart and take off a foot or (much less worryingly) leave me stranded at the beach, then I can deal with it one way or another. It's not something that I'm expecting to be a success, but maybe it has potential. I'm always finding weak points in these little engines with T2 and some have been improved over time, so maybe this will be another. Maybe it will be a total flop and it will feel like putting quarters into the bed at a cheap motel trying to ride just before I'm bouncing off of the ground again after the engine and rear wheel separate from the scooter. I can think of one way to find out.

[ryan_ott]

I think the direct coupler has advantages over the plastic dish. A u joint or flex plate would be the best option but there just isn’t room to make something like that. The plastic dish uses itself as the thrust washer to set the depth that the impeller rides in the seals. When the plastic wears you get coolant leaks or loose the pin. At least with the direct drive you can set the depth with shims, as long as it’s lined up correctly it shouldn’t wear. I’m happy Brent offered to make one for me.

[90GTVert]

The H-30 hand piece that I'm hoping to mount to the lathe is still "In Transit, Arriving Late" according to USPS. Everything else arrived yesterday though, so I made the 1.5" bar into a mount basically as shown in THIS VIDEO.

[90GTVert]

Titanium rod showed up today. McMaster-Carr charged $8 shipping for a box that was over a foot long, about 8" wide, and 3-4" deep containing the foot of 1/8" rod and 5ft of fuel hose... that arrived overnight.




I checked and the rod was right on 0.125" with my calipers. I made up 4 pins, shown with the standard pin. I parted all 4 off in the lathe, then used the lathe again to finish the ends and make sure they were the right length.




Standard (left) vs titanium. The extra thickness seems just right. They fit well enough that they don't immediately fall out like the standard pins, but they are easy enough to remove or install.




Having never worked with titanium, I was curious how much different the weight was. I need more titanium parts. Doesn't seem like a lot in this scale, but that's a 43% difference.

[aeroxbud]

A 43% difference. And the titanium is thicker too!

Really enjoying this. Can't wait to see how it out.

[90GTVert]

The Foredom hand piece is still "In Transit, Arriving Late". It'll be a full week past it's delivery date if it shows up tomorrow.


I worked on the front end instead. With the front end lying on the bench, the bend is pretty obvious.




One of the bolts that holds the shocks in was bent as well, but luckily I had the exact size here from a past McMaster-Carr order when I was getting T2 back together last time.






The shocks looked OK, but there was some oil on the top of the one that seemed to take the hit. I did a fork oil change on both and found the seal chewed up on the top of the one that leaked. It's just an o-ring and I had another o-ring that fit.




I installed the steering stem and then got ready to install the shocks. Slid the first shock all the way through it's hole. Wait a minute. It was way lose in there. Normally this scooter uses a fork that butts up against a lip in the stem and then the cap goes on and sits over all of that. The fork would slide all the way through everything with room to spare. Very loose.




I did a little measuring and my stanchion tubes are 26mm. The stem appears to be for 30mm forks. With the bolt loose the hole is just over 30mm and with it tight it's just a little under 30mm.

Crap. All this time I thought I had all the parts here for the front end. I either need a steering stem for 26mm forks or 30mm forks for this stem. I'd prefer 30mm forks, going for the beefier option. I went to PartsForChineseScooters, but of course they don't sell forks for the stem that they sell.

I looked around a bit and found Keoghs shocks on AliExpress. They come in 30mm tubes with 380mm or 400mm length. Mine seem to be about 392-393mm now (mount hole center to top of tube without cap), so I could either lower the front about 1/2" or raise it ~5/16". I'd prob go lower if I go that route, because the lower front ends help to put weight on the front and I like the feel of the handling better that way with these scoots. I could always lower the whole scoot with a different rear shock as well later if needed, because rear shocks are easier to get in more lengths. One thing I'm not sure that I like is the cap style though. They appear to have a cap the same diameter as the tube. It seems like it would be safest having the tube against the lip in the stem and then a cap above, so it really couldn't go anywhere even if the fork loosened up. I have lowered T1 before by grinding that lip out and just moving the tubes up in the fork though. Not a lot of miles on it that way, but it did go as fast as 70MPH and never gave me any trouble. Link to the forks : CLICK

I would also need a different adapter to use my RPM brake caliper with 220mm disc. I checked and I have an 82mm mount distance, so I think this would be the one : CLICK.

The adapter says it would take 23 days. That could be an issue. The car show is about a month away and I know it will need some tuning and such once it's on it's own feet.


Opinions are appreciated on the shocks and mounting, especially if anyone has these.

[190mech]

My CPI Oliver has 30's on it,no junk/salvage yards that might have a match?

[ryan_ott]

For reference 02-11 Zuma OEM forks are 30mm - 350mm axle to top cap, the Aerox forks I have are 30mm - approx 395mm axle to cap.
If you got in a pinch I’d pull my Aerox legs off so you could make the trip.

[oldgeek]

I got these left if you want them for shipping. short ones are approx. 393mm Long ones are approx. 463mm there is some rust on short set, minor rust on longer set.

[90GTVert]

Thanks for the very kind offers. I contacted OG and he's going to send the 30mm forks that otherwise match mine. These have rust on the tubes, so I'm hoping I can clean and polish those and try to get new fork seals and dust seals once I can measure so I can service them.

Chinese replacement forks can be had for ~$50 a set online, but I can't find anything that matches these. I'm interested in trying aftermarket forks because I did read an old post when 2TDave bought some for his Strada (the one that boostcrzy now owns) and he said they were a noticeable improvement vs stock. Mostly held off on those because nothing is an exact match on the mount style and who knows how long it would take to get 'em.



Still no hand piece so I can try cutting the pin slots in the direct drive adapters. USPS tracking is still useless on their location.

[90GTVert]

The shocks showed up from oldgeek today. Thanks Scott! They're a good match for stock, but larger OD.




Some rust on one tube, but I think it'll be okay once cleaned up.




I took one totally apart so I could check the seal sizes for ordering and so I can clean them and put in fresh oil. Smells like someone used gear oil in them.

I took the fork seal out and read it as 31 43 10.3. Wait. These are 30mm forks, why 31mm seals? Got the calipers out and they're 31mm stanchion tubes. I checked and if I pry the steering stem mount apart I can get the fork in there. Then when torqued there's a sizable gap when normally they're closed up.




I guess they'll be OK, but I have seen pics of steering stems broken and crashed scoots before and I am a 300lb dude that does some wheelies and rides fairly hard. For that reason, I figured I'd see what y'all think before I go and order new fork seals and dust seals. My main concern would be if making the stem kinda stretch more would be a problem. They'll hold, but I'm not enough of a metal expert to know if doing that to cheap Chinese cast metal will put me at risk of some sort of stress failure. Crashing sucks.