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Post by Kenho21 on Aug 26, 2019 19:33:38 GMT -5
Wow looks very nice! Could pass a glance test as factory made just about.
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 27, 2019 18:04:40 GMT -5
I put the engine together last night. Permatex Ultra Grey on the base gasket. 2 coats of Permatex Copper spray on the head gasket. The o-ring in the head wanted to be a pain. Kept coming out when I put the head on. I ended up spraying the head with a coat so the o-ring stuck to it and allowed me to assemble with it in place.
I checked the squish clearance and minimum was 1.0mm. 0.1mm more than I was aiming for, but I thought maybe it would tighten up a little if the base gasket compresses some.
Pressure tested it today and it failed. Couldn't find anything leaking with the spray bottle. Couldn't hear anything from the cylinder area. I replaced the gauge just before this with one from McMaster-Carr, because the tester was slowly losing pressure. Re-tested the tester with the new gauge and it still loses pressure. Can't see a leak there either. It's really slow, just like the loss with the engine. I wouldn't think it's likely to get 2 different gauges in a row that leak. The reinforced hose on part of it is from when I first put the leak tester together. I'm thinking maybe that or the also original pump bulb could have some tiny leak . I'll start with the hose since that's easy enough.
I put the scooter all back together and took it for a ride to get it hot so I could re-torque the head. It didn't do very well. It would run strong, but then it started spark knocking and I backed out. I put the stator back a little more advanced when I took it off earlier to check for a leaking seal on that side. Then it starting breaking up like it was fouling the plug again. This was a brand new plug gapped to 0.021". It took quite a while to get it to clear out and then it ran strong again. I got home and hit the gas while rolling just after I turned into my driveway while sitting on the front of the seat and it picked the wheel up a little before I let off.
So I was kinda happy because it did want to pull hard when it went, but figured now I'm stuck with finding out what is going wrong with the ignition before I can ride it. No way it fouls a new plug halfway into a 7 mile ride if the ignition is good.
I let it cool and just went back out to re-torque. Before I did anything, I noticed a small puddle of coolant under the engine and as I took a look I saw a drip come down. Looks like it's now leaking coolant to the outside. Could be on the inside too and causing it to break up, but I didn't notice a cloud of steam behind me.
I just checked torque and 1 stud was a little off. Not way loose or anything.
I came back inside devastated because I have been so happy to think that maybe I could finally ride T2 again and it all just fell apart.
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Post by ryan_ott on Aug 27, 2019 18:12:50 GMT -5
This is just as frustrating for us as it is for you. We want you to succeed more then you know. Stay at it.
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Post by benji on Aug 27, 2019 18:47:53 GMT -5
I put the engine together last night. Permatex Ultra Grey on the base gasket. I've always wondered why you use this stuff. If I were you, I would try threeBond 1184 or Yamabond 4. From the permatex website; "Permatex Permatex® Ultra Grey® Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker Overview OEM specified. Permatex® Ultra silicones were developed to meet todays technology changes. Sensor-safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Outstanding oil resistance and joint movement tolerance. Eight times more flexible than cork/composite gaskets; three times more oil resistant than conventional silicones. Temperature range -65ºF to 500ºF (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration." "Application Automobile Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, automatic transmission pans, intake manifold end seals, timing covers, water pumps, thermostat housings Heavy Duty" "Suggested Applications: Cover housing gasket, differential, assembly to rear axle housing, power dividers, axle shaft flanges" "NOTE: Not recommended for use on head gaskets or on parts in contact with gasoline." I'm pretty sure that's your problem. Permatex products were always a problem for me until I stopped using them. Even the copper spray seemed to have an eventual problem with leakage. The big problem is the use of silicone. Silicone products break down when they come in contact with gasoline. I haven't noticed the same problem with yamabond or three Bond yet. |
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 27, 2019 18:55:22 GMT -5
I put the engine together last night. Permatex Ultra Grey on the base gasket. I've always wondered why you use this stuff. If I were you, I would try threeBond 1184 or Yamabond 4. From the permatex website; "Permatex Permatex® Ultra Grey® Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker Overview OEM specified. Permatex® Ultra silicones were developed to meet todays technology changes. Sensor-safe, low odor, noncorrosive. Outstanding oil resistance and joint movement tolerance. Eight times more flexible than cork/composite gaskets; three times more oil resistant than conventional silicones. Temperature range -65ºF to 500ºF (-54°C to 260°C) intermittent; resists auto and shop fluids and vibration." "Application Automobile Suggested Applications: Valve covers, oil pans, automatic transmission pans, intake manifold end seals, timing covers, water pumps, thermostat housings Heavy Duty" "Suggested Applications: Cover housing gasket, differential, assembly to rear axle housing, power dividers, axle shaft flanges" "NOTE: Not recommended for use on head gaskets or on parts in contact with gasoline." I'm pretty sure that's your problem. Permatex products were always a problem for me until I stopped using them. Even the copper spray seemed to have an eventual problem with leakage. The big problem is the use of silicone. Silicone products break down when they come in contact with gasoline. I haven't noticed the same problem with yamabond or three Bond yet. I tend to stick with what works. The base gaskets have not been an issue and cleanup is pretty easy. I've used an awful lot of ThreeBond on gaskets, but for the base gasket I don't seem to get a better result than with this. It has also been on my reed gaskets for a long time without any issues. My issue now is at the head, which has no Ultra Grey on it. It's copper spray. I'm not saying there isn't something better than the Ultra Grey around, but I can't see how it's causing my head gasket to leak right now. |
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Post by benji on Aug 27, 2019 18:56:46 GMT -5
May I suggest Hondabond HT or Yamabond this time around? After a perfect leak down test the first time on the QJ streetrace install and only one leak due to me not re-torquing after heat cycle on the Zuma, I must say at $12.00 for a 1.9 oz. tube it was worth every penny. I’m not doing liquid cooled stuff now, but it’s been getting the job done on my reed/intake, head/base connections with a good seal. The metal seemed slightly softer on the Zuma case and I knicked the edge at one point but still managed to seal. I'll be putting Permatex Ultra Grey on the base. That hasn't been an issue and cleanup isn't bad. Probably copper spray on the copper gasket. I may have to pick up some Hondabond HT or Threebond 1207B (same thing I think) at some point to try out somewhere though. It probably would have fared better on the last go-round than the 1184. 1184 is only rated to 150C/302F vs 1207B claiming 250C/482F. dude, please try the three Bond 1184 or the yamabond 4. I actually have an extra two, and all my scooter are going into storage for a little while so if you'd like I can probably mail it to you for free. The stuff you have been using is not gasoline safe. Try something rated for head gasket use. |
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Post by benji on Aug 27, 2019 18:58:05 GMT -5
I dont like the copper spray either. That stuff would leak. It would push out of the head after a little bit of time and heat. Three Bond and yamabond are what I use now because the permatex was failing. If I were you, with the failures you're having, I would just try it. What's the worst that could happen?
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Post by 190mech on Aug 27, 2019 18:58:09 GMT -5
What are we missing here?Is the LC head surface area that much smaller than the AC setup?I remember the AC builds would have head leaks also on your long trips,,perhaps the clamping load for a 54mm barrel(originally designed for a 40mm) is simply not enough for the added combustion pressure...Larger diameter studs with more clamping force is a thought,but the cases dont have enough meat to allow an 8mm stud..I dont know the answer,just throwing these thoughts out there for consideration....  |
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Post by benji on Aug 27, 2019 19:00:09 GMT -5
Personally, I think it's the permatex products squeezing out from between the mating surfaces due to pressure. That would cause a leak. It caused leaks for me.
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Post by benji on Aug 27, 2019 19:04:49 GMT -5
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Post by benji on Aug 27, 2019 19:06:47 GMT -5
This is from permatex website, and the first thing they list is using it on a head gasket. Fails. Our motors are full of air fuel mixture all the time, if you use the stuff on any surface that is in contact with air fuel mixture it will fail. www.permatex.com/ten-common-gasketing-mistakes/Again, send me your address, I'll send you a tube to use for free. I have an extra that I won't be using. |
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Post by ryan_ott on Aug 27, 2019 19:14:44 GMT -5
I’ll say this to add to the confusion - the only time I’ve had case leaks was when using yamabond 4. To me it’s too thin, ultra grey seals every time for me with thousands of miles behind me. It’s tacky and for me seals just fine. There is something else going on here. Pushed out head cover o-ring?
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 27, 2019 19:18:36 GMT -5
I dont like the copper spray either. That stuff would leak. It would push out of the head after a little bit of time and heat. Three Bond and yamabond are what I use now because the permatex was failing. If I were you, with the failures you're having, I would just try it. What's the worst that could happen? I have used ThreeBond 1184 numerous times. The 1184 actually did much worse than the Ultra Grey on the head seal for me. That's what just failed before this. I have a full tube here, but thank you. Maybe Copper Spray on copper just sucks for coolant, at least on a copper gasket. I used a copper head gasket one time on my Mustang. That thing leaked coolant immediately. SCE said that to use the copper gasket and get a good seal the block and head both needed to be machined to a certain RA spec so I went back to standard stuff. Then again, I saw Ryan's kit that uses a copper central gasket. Right now it's an outside leak. I don't know that coolant is in the combustion chamber. Maybe a better sealant like the HOndabond HT or it's ThreeBond equivalent could work to coat the copper gasket. I dunno. |
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Post by benji on Aug 27, 2019 19:31:47 GMT -5
Also, your letting it dry overnight, right? before you fire it up, or do any pressure test, or even kick it over. You got to let it dry.
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Post by benji on Aug 27, 2019 19:34:14 GMT -5
I’ll say this to add to the confusion - the only time I’ve had case leaks was when using yamabond 4. To me it’s too thin, ultra grey seals every time for me with thousands of miles behind me. It’s tacky and for me seals just fine. There is something else going on here. Pushed out head cover o-ring? that's weird... I literally have the exact opposite experience. I went from Ultra grey and copper spray to three Bond and yamabond because of the seal. There's actually some that spilled on my garage floor right now, it is thick and hard. It's thin when it comes out of the tube, but it hardens great. But hey, that's just my experience. |
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