Triton # 2 (T2) 49cc to 110cc & Nearly Everywhere In Between

[90GTVert]

Aug 27, 2019 19:31:47 GMT -5 benji said:

Also, your letting it dry overnight, right? before you fire it up, or do any pressure test, or even kick it over. You got to let it dry.

Standard practice is at least overnight, often full 24 hours. Then pressure test. Normally I get them to seal for a while. If the issues were all in assembly I shouldn't have been to car show weekends without failures before. This one is the first time I've had the LC setup leak to atmosphere. It's usually combustion pressure into the water jacket.

[90GTVert]

Just looking around a bit.

From SCE : "For best results SCE Pro Copper Head Gaskets should be used with O-rings in the block or head and sealant if liquid cooled (use Copper Coat, SCE p/n G1612)."

That's basically the same thing as the Permatex Copper Spray. Obviously made by CRC instead of Permatex.

[90GTVert]

I've looked more and it sounds like copper sprays are the only thing recommended for use on head gaskets. Silicone based products are not supposed to be used where exposed to gasoline. Permatex says that no form a gasket should be used as a dressing. Still, some RTV has worked great for reeds and base gasket dressing so I have no intention of stopping there. Solvent based sealers should be used around gasoline, but the solvent based stuff that I've looked at so far doesn't quite cut it as far as temperature tolerance. The Hondabond HT that some say is great is a silcone based sealant.

Pretty much it sounds like copper spray is the only thing recommended as a gasket dressing for head gaskets by gasket manufacturers and chemical suppliers.

Years ago, I had a couple of machinists talk about Hylomar, but don't hear much about it today. They also mentioned Right Stuff by Permatex as a good sealant, but that is another silicone based product. I did find Hylomar mentioned in a longer bit from SCE "

"Sealants Required? Yes, some method of sealing is required if the engine will be running coolant or oil through the head gasket. I state it this way because many racing specific engines either A. do not run coolant or B. re-route the coolant and oil away from the head/block mating surfaces. Since most engines run coolant and oil through the head gaskets we’ll discuss head gasket sealants. Most importantly, you don’t need very much; second, don’t use silicone.. that about covers it. People get into trouble with leaking head gaskets when they use too much sealant, especially too much silicone. Since the block and head surfaces are flat, the potential leak paths are very small, even with a 100RA surface finish the peaks and valleys are only about .002”, which doesn’t require very much sealant to be fluid-tight. Head gasket dressings do not cure, therefore, as the head bolts are tightened the sealant ‘flows’ from the places it’s not needed (peaks) but remains in place to seal the leak paths (valleys). By contrast, silicone cures to form a layer that the cylinder head can sit on, never actually coming into contact with the head gasket (refer back to our discussion about metal-to-metal above). We recommend and use both KW Copper Coat and Hylomar in the aerosol cans, simply spray a light coat on both sides of the gasket, let it ‘tack up’ for a while (no less than 2 hours) and you’re ready to bolt the heads on."


I definitely didn't let anything tack up for 2 hours, but the Permatex Copper didn't advise that long and I've never let it sit for more than minutes.

SCE said 60 to 80 RA surfaces are preferred. I looked that up. To measure, you need a profilometer. Okay. So that costs $2,000 from a quick search. Nope. Saw a video where one guy said to visualize what RA 60 is, it's about what a cylinder deck looks like. Ah perfect, that must be what my cylinder is then. lol Technicalities aside, I'm sure my cylinder could use some smoothing, and I have room based on the squish. I don't expect that to work any miracles though.

I'm not real sure what to do at this point. I don't think I've ever used copper gaskets on AC engines and not had leaks made visible by burnt oil trails. That doesn't give me a lot of hope.

[Jwhood]

There has gotta be away to get this thing to seal,how about barrs head gasket seal?
Or steel seal seems pretty legit!!

[90GTVert]

Aug 28, 2019 16:29:38 GMT -5 Jwhood said:

There has gotta be away to get this thing to seal,how about barrs head gasket seal?
Or steel seal seems pretty legit!!

I'm looking for a steel head so I can just weld it to the cylinder.

[90GTVert]

I just took it apart and got some pics.

Here's the only symptom I've noticed. Leaking to the outside. Pay no attention to what looks like a leak down from the head stud. That's from a past setup. I'm just getting a puddle under the scoot and can see drops on the head/cyl mating area.




The spark plug just smells like oil. Doesn't look or smell like coolant was on it like the last time around with Threebond 1184 only.




Now the top of the copper gasket. Lines actually look pretty clean where it should be meeting up with sealing surfaces.














Underside of the head doesn't show a lot to me.








The gasket was pretty well stuck to the cylinder. Here's the cylinder. Like the head, I don't get a lot from it. I should really smooth the surface out though. Go back in grit and try to get rid of scratches. It doesn't feel all scratched up, but I'm pretty sure it's not RA60 either.








Now the underside of the copper gasket. This is where it looks like evidence of failure to me. If you look at the edges of the copper spray in most pics and areas of the gasket, you see clean edges. Part of the outer edge on this side that met up with the cylinder deck is smudged or washed out.












So, nearest I can figure, the gasket just didn't seal coolant in on the underside. Looks like it was fine on the top side. I'm not terribly confident that even if that seals the combustion chamber will stay sealed for a long time, but it's worth a shot if I can get it past this leak.

[oldgeek]

Looks like the hole that is slightly "oversized" on your gasket is the culprit?

[ryan_ott]

If it’s pushing to the outside using the copper in place of the outer o-ring has failed. Maybe try filling the o-ring void with sealant for more sealing surface. Fill and sit on a piece of wax paper to keep it flat until dry??

[90GTVert]

Aug 28, 2019 19:41:50 GMT -5 oldgeek said:

Looks like the hole that is slightly "oversized" on your gasket is the culprit?

I'm not seeing it. That "oversize" is from the drill bit grabbing and twisting the sheet when making it.

Aug 28, 2019 20:25:35 GMT -5 ryan_ott said:

If it’s pushing to the outside using the copper in place of the outer o-ring has failed. Maybe try filling the o-ring void with sealant for more sealing surface. Fill and sit on a piece of wax paper to keep it flat until dry??

I was using the o-ring. The clear contact area on the top of the gasket is from the o-ring. I think it does fine there, but maybe the o-ring doesn't put enough pressure there to get the other side to seal. If filling the void, I would probably want it done like the groove around the chamber, but I don't want to go there right now.

After seeing this, I'm wishing I just cut the chamber area and left the outside alone. Could have then tried the copper in the center and stuck with the o-ring only out there that has worked every time for that seal. That may have been a fail too though. Not sure how clamping force ends up being distributed that way.

[ryan_ott]

Can you just use the o-ring on the outside and the copper gasket inboard?

[repherence2]

Aug 28, 2019 13:01:03 GMT -5 90GTVert said:

SCE said 60 to 80 RA surfaces are preferred. I looked that up. To measure, you need a profilometer. Okay. So that costs $2,000 from a quick search. Nope. Saw a video where one guy said to visualize what RA 60 is, it's about what a cylinder deck looks like. Ah perfect, that must be what my cylinder is then. lol Technicalities aside, I'm sure my cylinder could use some smoothing, and I have room based on the squish. I don't expect that to work any miracles though.

I'm not real sure what to do at this point. I don't think I've ever used copper gaskets on AC engines and not had leaks made visible by burnt oil trails. That doesn't give me a lot of hope.

in my line of work, we repair fluid valve seats to final finish of 16 RA (microinches).   we verify surface finish visually. we use a Surface Comparator. basically a dollar bill sized piece of metal that has representations of 16, 32, 63, 125, etc.  It provides examples of Shape Turn, Ground, and Blanchard(?).  To achieve 16 RA we use diamond plated laps.  our 300 grit puts us at a surface finish of 32 RA.  To achieve 16 RA we have 600 grit.

[pitobread]

put an o ring in and also use the copper, problem less.

Edit, i didn't refresh, doh.

Also use either a countersink or a step bit cutting thin sheet.. it bites less.

[repherence2]

from looking at the fabrication pictures on page 220, the cylinder leak appears to correspond to the kink in the gasket that is visible on the left side of the gasket in those pictures.

[190mech]

To add to the confusion,,Thin bead of ultra grey on the outer non O-ring side,copper spray everywhere else..Hybrid Sealant System!!

[oldgeek]

Try some bubble gum, hubba bubba always works great for me!