Triton # 2 (T2) 49cc to 110cc & Nearly Everywhere In Between

[90GTVert]

I replaced the seal last night and then got a pass on the leak test.

My plan for today was to check out the ignition system a little and see if I could find anything that would obviously cause a weaker spark. Of course when I got out my multimeter, it went nuts. When I turned it to AC volts it flashed on and off and wouldn't measure anything. When I turned it to DC volts it was trying to measure resistance. When I turned it to some spots it would totally shut off or give wild readings. Batteries were good so I junked it. I looked around to see who had what that was actually open today. Home Depot carries Klein Tools, which get pretty good reviews, so I went with that. Had to take a 100 mile ride for that.




I checked the exciter and pickup first. Both seemed very good. I got 150VAC cranking the engine over with a drill on the exciter wire and 1.5VAC on the pickup wire.

I moved on to the coil. One good thing about having an MSD coil is that I do at least have specs for it. Primary resistance is quoted at 0.9Ω. I got 1Ω. Secondary is stated to be 988Ω and I got 1,054Ω. Both close enough for me.

Then I checked my spark plug wire. I use Moroso Ultra 40 wire, that is supposed to be 40Ω per foot. My roughly 1ft long spark plug wire tested between 1,100Ω and 1,800Ω, jumping around the whole time. I would say that's pretty far out of spec.

I made up a new wire, and that one tested at 30.1Ω.

Then I got out the adjustable spark tester. I wanted to see if there was a tangible difference in spark strength between the new and old wire. With the old wire, it would consistently spark at about 22.5kV markings on the tester and wouldn't spark at all at 25kV or beyond. Then I hooked up the new wire and it would consistently spark at 25kV and still make some spark at about 27.5kV. I've never had high numbers in these tests with this coil, but that seems to be about on par with where I think it was when I tested it after I got it.

I wanted to cover all of the bases so I also put weatherpack connectors on a generic replacement CDI and then tried the spark strength test again. It actually got worse and wouldn't even fire at all at 25kV. That either means my CDI is good or that one sucks.




Hopefully the wire will do it and I won't have so many problems, but I should probably look into quality coils that are more capable in the future.


While I was cranking over the engine, I checked squish in 4 spots (top, bottom, L&R). I got 0.89mm, 0.87mm, 0.78mm, and 0.89mm. That would be pretty much where I want it, aside from the 0.78. Prob should have re-checked that one, but I called it close enough.

[90GTVert]

I went out this morning and tied up the loose ends. Just got back from a short ride. Fail. About 4 miles in, it started acting up when I tried to go back to heavy throttle, but it was fine at low throttle. Then it started breaking up more and more. It got up to just over 160 coolant temp, which is hot for this thing when it's right. I didn't even look to see if it was leaking in the floor this time. I'll go back out later and see if I have a puddle, make sure there wasn't just an air pocket and low coolant, check the plug, and maybe re-tq if it seems like the engine may stay together.

I'm not sure if my ignition is really bad all of the sudden or if coolant leaks in with the copper gasket and that's fouling it or all of the above. I'm gonna try to find where I tested this coil when it was new. I would think if it's on par with the results from that time, the ignition should be alright and it's likely elsewhere. Guess it could be something starting to fail when hot though.

[90GTVert]

I found the results from when I first tested it, and it seems to be pretty much on par with what the ignition system was doing at that time (actually just barely better numbers right now) and I wasn't having a bunch of trouble with it.

Nov 8, 2014 21:13:24 GMT -5 90GTVert said:

To make it fairly simple I found the adjustments on the tester where each coil would deliver what appeared to be consistent spark, an intermittent spark, and at the point that no spark was made. The intermittent sparks were not all equal... some were very few and far between and others were closer to being consistent but not quite. Still, it shows the maximum gap that the coils managed to cross.

Ignition Coil	Consistent Spark	Intermittent Spark	No Spark
MSD 8232	22.5KV	25KV	27.5KV
Stock 1E40QMB Coil	25KV	27.5KV	30KV
Bando 1E40QMB Coil	25KV	27.5KV	30KV
SS 1E40QMB Coil	27.5KV	30KV	35KV
Stock 139QMB Coil (TaoTao)	25KV	35KV	40KV
Stock 139QMB Coil	20KV	25KV	27.5KV
ScrappyDog Red Hot 139QMB Coil	22.5KV	30KV	35KV

The biggest gap was bridged by the stock coil from the cheap TaoTao.



Meanwhile, the $80 MSD coil and Moroso race wire combo performed near the bottom of the list.

How much does this mean at 8-10,000RPM with a gap from 0.026" to 0.030"? I have no idea.

[90GTVert]

The spark plug just looks and smells gas and oil fouled AFAICT.

No puddle under the scooter. I removed the cap and no pop of pressure like I normally get when a leak is pressurizing the cooling system. Coolant was up to the top of the radiator just like before the ride.

2 lower cylinder studs were a little loose, or a little off of spec anyway. Not really loose. I used to do re-torques the same way I would to an AC engine and break one nut loose and then re-tq to spec. After the go-round where it seemed fine and then the next ride after a re-tq it leaked, I have started just checking that all nuts make the tq-wrench click. That's not really what I'd call the proper way to re-tq, because if they're kinda close but not on spec they may show as torqued where breaking them loose and re-doing should get an accurate setting. I'm afraid that it could screw up the seal with all pressure off of even one corner and I just don't need the extra risk with an already difficult situation.

I put in an NGK BR7HS-10. That's one heat range hotter and the 10 means a 1.0mm gap but I gapped to 0.020". I don't think that's the cause to all of this, because it ran for a long time with BR8HS plugs and this fouling stuff has only been recently to any severe degree. At first I could ride all I wanted and it was just head gaskets that stopped me. Then it got to a point that it would foul plugs when I rode around OC at low speeds. Now it has progressed to only getting a few miles on a new plug before fouling. I have used BR8HSA plugs with the long electrode and BPR8HS plugs with the projected tip and those have changed nothing. I have been through tuning the main jet and I've got the smallest jet in there that didn't make it start to die at night when it was cooler.


I think I'm gonna go back out and run it for a minute with the cap off just to make sure no air bubble escapes. Then I'm gonna take a short ride and try to check some ignition specs right after to see if they change much. Running out of ideas here. At least if the cylinder isn't leaking anywhere, there's some hope. I'm really not confident if it is or isn't though.

[90GTVert]

I started the scoot with the cap off and didn't see any change in coolant level. I took a 7 mile ride and it didn't foul out the plug and run crappy. It did get up to as high as 163 near the end of the ride. It has never ran this hot, but it wasn't acting crazy like it usually does when it overheats with a leak. Normally the temp will sort of suddenly spike and then it may go back down and be a bit of a roller coaster or it just gets way hot. This is gradual heating and it cools when it should at lower throttle, but it's just kinda always hotter than it should be once it gets warmed up. Another thought I had is that I probably have copper spray coating the temp sensor in the head. Could be that it's not as hot as it says and that is throwing it off a little. Prob should have masked that along with the combustion chamber but I didn't.

Thankfully, still no overflow into the expansion tank. Still nothing leaking that I've noticed.

I got stung in the neck by something along the way. Not sure what, but I pulled out a stinger after I came in from some checks to the scooter. As soon as I got home, I rolled it right up on the bench and started checking things out.

Here's the BR8HSA that fouled on the previous ride.



Here's the BR7HS-10 from the last ride.




The 7 certainly looks better, but then it should since it wasn't breaking up badly for half the ride. Maybe some hope there, but still doesn't seem like it should be the whole issue as I said in the last post. It may be that the plugs with extended electrodes and tips really don't get along with it.

I checked the voltage coming from the exciter and pickup and those both looked great.

I checked the coil and the primary side read 0.1Ω. I misquoted yesterday and said 1.0Ω with a spec of 0.9Ω in my last post, but the actual spec is 0.09Ω and I got 0.1Ω yesterday. That looked fine.

I checked the coil secondary side and I got 1,080Ω. Yesterday I got 1,054V and the spec is 988Ω. Slightly off, but I don't know if that's really an issue.

I finished up with a spark strength test and it did just as well hot as it had at room temperature.


I'm really not seeing the ignition do anything strange when it has been used a little bit. I don't really know where to go from here. All I can figure to do is to try to ride it longer and see if the 7 fouls out. I can try a non-contact thermometer near the coolant temp sensor and see if that looks much different. I think it is normally off a little anyway though.

[190mech]

Have you done a test ride with the other CDI box yet?Could be a component within the box heating up and failing.Does any of the other 2 strokes in your shed have a known good CDI box on it to test??

[90GTVert]

There may be another CPI CDI on T1 and/or the Venus. Ryan gave me 2 CDIs, but they have to have a relay to work because they're ground to run. I had asked him about Zuma CDIs, thinking maybe it was a simple and cheap quality replacement. Forgot about the ign difference. If it were just a CDI issue, I would have thought I'd see a change in spark strength when hot. The cheapo is a known working CDI. It worked fine on a past project, it just shows lower gap jumping ability than the current CDI. If it's a failure, I'd think I could carry around another CDI and swap it in and it should immediately be OK again, as long as I don't ride around too long sputtering and really foul the plug out. It's either that or put an 8 plug back in and then ride with a different CDI and see what it does. I may just take a ride and carry a plug and the cheap CDI. If it acts up, try the CDI first. If it still sucks, see what it does with a new plug and the different CDI. I could be putting too much focus on spark strength and timing could be a concern, though even when acting up if I can get it to clear out it will go well. It sputtered and barely made it home and then wheelied in the driveway after a long WOT beforehand. That doesn't sound like timing being off.

[oldgeek]

Is it possible your new oil/gas ratio is contributing to the fouling?

[jackrides]

Thank you Sir Vert for proving that Labor Day is named for a good reason. It's getting close to time to take a day away from evil gremlins.

[90GTVert]

I put the same 7 series plug back in. Put a CDI and a plug under the seat and went for a ride. I rode ~13 miles and it started bogging almost all the way out at times about halfway in. I've got video, but I'm too far over it ATM to get it together. It would bog and then be fine and then bog and then be fine. I thought it may be when it was getting hot, the engine or the plug, but I didn't see a surefire way to make it happen. It seemed like a lean bog to me. I even got that sharp sound on decel at times like a lean or hot engine can get. I did reach back and unscrew the gas cap some to make sure that didn't change it. That pretty much accomplished getting gas on me.

Temps went up to about 160 and would cool and go back, depending what I was doing. I stopped at one point that it was near 160 and got out the thermometer. By the time I got off and checked it was down to 147 and right at the sender read about 125, though I got 142 on a cylinder nut/stud.

I was just about to think it was a sender issue and that I needed to clean it when it started getting hotter and hotter. The gauge then would lose signal, more suspicion of that sender. Temp would jump around. Max said 321 when I got home. I also noticed that I had coolant in the expansion tank though, so it either did get very hot or combustion pressure is mixing in again or both. I could see some coolant in the head area. Almost looked like it could have come from the bottom/side of a coolant hose attached to the head. Coolant sprayed on the airbox and some moisture around the area otherwise. Could have been from the expansion, but it wasn't more than 1/4 full.

I put the pressure tester on the overflow nipple of the radiator and pumped it up over 15psi. Didn't see anything start to leak. I think it was losing pressure slowly though.

Earlier in the day I was optimistic that maybe it would be ready for the beach soon. Now I'm back to thinking it's never gonna work.

[90GTVert]

Oh, almost forgot. It's been about 500RPM low too and generally soft feeling all day with this 7 series plug. Maybe the whole time it has been running this time. I have the video from the last try of the copper gasket where it leaked outside on the computer so I know it was the usual ~10,000RPM then. Now it's more like ~9,500 WOT.

[190mech]

I just mention the CDI box from the many failures during my younger days as a motorcycle mechanic working on Ossa,Bultaco,CanAm,Suzuki,Penton,KTM,Husky,all had hot soak failures of the CDI box that only expensive replacements cured..Waay cheaper now days as decent aftermarket products are available...

[mattyslimz]

Bog issues too eh? Crap, it’s seeming to me these aluminum bore higher end kits are temperamental until they’re ‘fully’ broken-in. Or perhaps right now these weather conditions this time of year are playing with our very delicate tune? I’ve noticed in the region lately it’s been nice and cool in the morning with barely any humidity, same in the evening and night, but mid day there’s high humidity. The aluminum bore compared to the cast on AC is a significant difference. It warms up slower, but cools much faster. Temps do fluctuate much more but not by a lot, with that said I still do not have a correct tune. I’ve been fouling plugs on 32:1 with a 9 plug. All of this talk of ignition issues only when a high revving aluminum bore comes into play, makes me continue to ask about INNER ROTOR IGNITIONS and their matching CDI. I know I will get it right, I WONT give up and I WILL succeed in tuning this thing.

[90GTVert]

Mine's still the iron bore 103cc. These big engines are normally pretty easy to get along with. The last year and a half has just been a royal pain for various reasons though.


I lost about 2 psi overnight on the cooling system tester and didn't see coolant anywhere. I took off the hose that I think must have leaked at some point based on the coolant around the clamp and hose end. Didn't look bad, but I cut a small amount off of the end and put it back on. Sliced another finger tip with the hose clamp. Got a finger yesterday with a clamp too. I don't know what the hell I'm doing lately, but most of my fingers are tore up from past 3-4 days from stupid things.

While it was low on coolant, I took the sensor out of the head to clean the copper spray off of it. I wish the copper spray were the issue. Both wires are about broken. I think just the little twisting from installing and removing it finished it off because now I just get --- for a temp reading. Ordered a replacement, but that will take a few. Literally 9 minutes after I ordered, eBay sent me an email to let me know they're doing 8% eBay bucks.


Then I got T1 out of the corner. It has the CDI for the HOCA ignition. Then I took every panel off of the Venus and finally found it's CDI. It actually had the stock CPI CDI still.

I looked around online again to see if I could find a CPI CDI anywhere. I'm sure there are other good ones, but the CPI CDIs have worked well for me for the entire time that I've had scooters. Aftermarket has been so-so at best for me. The Malossi CDI that Ryan gave me died in short order and that would have been as sure of a bet as anything I would have thought.

This is all I could find :
www.dhgate.com/product/cpi-a3202-cdi-unit-ac-fired-5-wires-for-scooter/423777446.html

I read reviews for dhgate and they are scary at best. Their facebook page is currently 2 of 5 star rated with tons of customers that haven't got their orders, have orders in the wrong state, or got the wrong thing. That sounded like so much fun that I had to try it. With that reputation and the way my luck has gone with T2... what could possibly go wrong? I ordered 3 for ~$31 total. Maybe I'll see them in a month. Maybe I'll lose $30. Even if I get them, they look a little fishy to me, but these CDIs did actually come with different logo styles on them.


I'd like to swap the CPI CDI in and a BR8HS and see what happens. Not sure if I really want to ride it without a coolant temp sensor though. Wouldn't worry me that much, but it was just blowing out coolant and getting hot yesterday. I'm kinda antsy so I may do it. Just want to figure something out one way or another because I'm beyond tired of ____ing with T2. I'm at the point that if this copper gasket doesn't seal, I'm wondering if I'm not just better off to go back to o-ring (buy a 52mm head and cut it to work). At least sometimes that would make it through a beach trip or a weekend. That's not all that promising though, because this is my 2nd 54mm kit and both have done the same stuff. Other thought was a 52mm kit and hope the 1mm extra between bore and o-ring actually matters.

[mattyslimz]

Sept 3, 2019 11:26:35 GMT -5 90GTVert said:

Mine's still the iron bore 103cc. These big engines are normally pretty easy to get along with. The last year and a half has just been a royal pain for various reasons

For some reason I thought this was your new TPR 86 kit you were having issues with.. I re-read and your doing a whole other case for that. note to self: Never go LC.