Triton # 2 (T2) 49cc to 110cc & Nearly Everywhere In Between

[pitobread]

Gopro on the rear pulley tells you lots when your transmission tuning...

['O'Verse]

I think you might be undercutting it a bit. I'm thinking that cylinder needs to be ran in the 12-13,000 rpm range. Might need to go Mo Powah! youtu.be/V1XY8jXIqUo

[90GTVert]

After the 108 main jet made a nice improvement, I started fiddling with the CVT. I realize that conventional wisdom would say to go with the clutch when it struggles to get moving, but I've spent enough time on the OR kit to know that it can do a lot, especially the variator, for bypassing low RPM. I also didn't really know where this thing even wants to rev because it's not like anyone else is running a TPR 86cc with a Peace Pipe, round slide carb, basically stock ignition and modified stock airbox.

Unfortunately there were about 20MPH winds today and I hate trying to figure anything out for a tune when it's windy, but I figured that I'm really still working on ballpark anyway so it's not like I'm fine tuning here.

I swapped from 10g to a mix of 8.5 and 10g sliders for an average of 9.25g. It made a slight improvement. I saw about 10,700RPM somewhere around 60MPH.

It seemed happy enough at a little higher RPM, so I moved to a mix of 10 and 7g sliders for 8.5g average. Then I got 61.5MPH @ 10,930 RPM on a test run and it wasn't too far from being able to hit from a launch.

I made up some inserts on the lathe to make 7g sliders into 9g and ran a mix of 7 and 9 to average 8g. It actually finally hits basically off the line. It could be better, but it's not bad. Gets on the pipe pretty easily whenever it's moving. I think the weights are too light for good speed though. I didn't hold it open much, but I saw 10,840RPM @ 52.7MPH that time.

If I had to guess right now, I'd guess it would do better with 8.5g sliders and a clutch setup that would help it rev more on the launch. Pretty sure I've just got 1,000RPM springs in my stock clutch with some holes drilled in it. Maybe I'll get lucky and 1,500 or 2,000RPM springs will do it. I think it's going to prefer to stay in the 8-11,000RPM range.

This is with a worn belt, so I have to hope that it doesn't turn into a dog again with a full width belt.

On the upside, it may like a leaner needle. I think it's still pretty rich part throttle, but TBH I'm kinda scared to move in that direction. If I can get it to go hard without leaning it out more, I prob will. Especially now that cooler weather is coming. It was near 90 the yesterday and today only 70s with 50s at night.

Right now, it's pretty close to the 103 on takeoff up to 30 at least. Last time I checked the 103 it wasn't 100% and it did about 4.4 seconds 0-30. This was about the same tonight. The 103 wants to pick the front up easier if I snap the throttle from a very slow roll and feels more abrupt right from the second that you gas it on launch. I'm kinda surprised, but I think it might be a very close match between this and the 103 in a drag race. I was starting to think this was gonna be nastier, but I don't think they'll be far apart unless I'm really missing something here. One thing that will prob hold the 86cc back some is my fear of frying it with pushing more lean or trying to up the ignition timing more.

Another bit of good news is that I've got at least 40 miles of test runs on it and it hasn't fouled the 10 series plug yet. It didn't foul the 8 series the last time I ran the 103 after the CDI swap either, so it's looking like the CDI was the problem.


Here's a vid from the ride with 8g sliders. Notice they tar and chipped the road that I do most tuning passes on the day before yesterday. Perfect timing. Loose gravel and dust everywhere.

[90GTVert]

Sept 18, 2019 21:36:11 GMT -5 'O'Verse said:

I think you might be undercutting it a bit. I'm thinking that cylinder needs to be ran in the 12-13,000 rpm range. Might need to go Mo Powah! youtu.be/V1XY8jXIqUo

Oh, I'm sure it would love a hyper race exhaust and an expensive ignition. Without those, I'll be really surprised if it likes that kind of RPM. It seems to me that it's running out of it's peak before 11,000RPM, but remember that this exhaust was designed for a 100cc that likes 9,000-10,000RPM. Not sure how much it may extend the power if the ignition would retard more at high revs. I might be able to do a better clutch if need be, but another $1000 in race parts is way outta the picture.

[90GTVert]

I put in a return request for the "52mm" head from gforcemx. I figured that money could be better used for something else since I'm not real confident that it will work once machined for a 54mm bore. Decided to do something dumb (financially) and ordered a Dr Pulley HiT clutch. Same one that Ryan just bought. I have had no real complaints with my stock clutch, but I have been curious what a good clutch can do for many years. Will it actually leave harder? Will it wheelie easier? The thing that I enjoy most with T2 is taking off from a stop so it seems like it's finally worth trying. I find it hard to believe it won't just slip the belt if the clutch grabs very hard, but I can only find out if I try it.


I think I'm gonna try to do dowels and o-rings in the head and cyl. Just trying to figure out what is the best setup. If I go with 8mm dowels, I can use 6mm ID (studs are about 6.2 IIRC) 1mm thick. One o-ring above and below the dowels. The dowels would be sharp on the ends though. If I went up to 10mm OD dowels, I could prob make those myself if need be from either steel or aluminum and have flatter ends that would work a little better with 6mm ID studs with 2mm thickness. I already have a cutter that I made at one point to do an 11mm pocket. Could prob just cut it down to 10mm and it would do the job. 10mm sounds better, but it will eat up more of the sealing surface.

Or do I have it all wrong and I shouldn't be thinking of the sandwich of o-rings and instead use a dowel with an o-ring around it right where the surfaces meet?

[190mech]

Surface has chamfer for the o-ring to to set in..It's sounding good!

[90GTVert]

Sept 19, 2019 3:35:33 GMT -5 190mech said:

Surface has chamfer for the o-ring to to set in.

That sounded more logical for sealing, but I wonder if little 1mm thick o-rings will hold up in there. I can go 8mm ID with 1mm thickness for 10mm or 1.5mm thickness for 11mm.

Here's a pic from when I practiced with the cutter that I made on the old junk cylinder. 11mm diameter.

[190mech]

That looks good!There are calculators for o-ring seat depths so they dont get over or under squashed..

[90GTVert]

I've got "super-resilient" viton o-rings with an 8mm ID and 11mm OD on the way from McMaster-Carr and a set of 4T (I know, now it'll be even slower) hollow dowels with an 8mm OD and 7mm ID coming from PFS with the HiT clutch.

I'll prob try to get about 25% compression with the o-rings. That would be about a 1.125mm deep groove. I figure the way to go would be to open the head gasket up so that the o-rings are making contact on the head and cylinder, which would make the 0.5mm of the gasket thickness then part of the groove depth. So I'd need to cut 0.625mm deep. It won't be nearly that accurate, but hopefully I can get close enough. Planning to cut into the cylinder. Initially I thought about cutting part in the head and part in the cylinder, but I'm prob better off to leave the head alone as much as I can because that filler may have pockets in it that I open up. It is prob also easier to install the o-rings with a deeper groove in 1 surface.

I'm planning to use a standard gasket for an air cooled cylinder. Then I don't have to machine away any more of anything to try to concentrate the clamping load on the central section. I should only have to open up the stud holes to let the o-ring sit in there. I guess that won't ruin the idea of the dowels since the gasket won't have a hard wall to locate it? The head and cylinder will benefit from the dowels, but not the gasket. Not sure if I have copper 54mm gaskets around, but if not I have new 54mm aluminum gaskets for sure.




Haven't touched the 103 today. Not sure if I'll mess with it till I get the HiT clutch. H2Oi unofficial car show is next weekend so I'm hoping the clutch gets here early in the week and it works well for me. If it does, I may not even tune anything else aside from maybe going up in slider weight a little and making sure it still works with a new belt that's nearly 2mm wider than what it has ATM. I'll prob just truck the scoot down and unload so I don't have to worry about it. I don't really understand what the limits of this will be as far as if I can get away with long periods of part throttle or WOT and I may have another scoot around for at least a little riding during the hot rod show in October so I really don't want to melt this thing riding back and forth to the beach just yet. If I blow it up doing a burnout or trying to race someone, that sucks but I can live with that easier.

[190mech]

Sounds like a good plan,will your copper gasket still be used along with the Alu AC gasket?O-ring still on outer water jacket??

[90GTVert]

No. The plan was just to swap the LC gasket that I made for an AC gasket. That gives me the clearance on the outside without a lot of fuss. Basically I'm just gonna hope that outer o-ring stays in the cut down grooves. I think with it compressed and just 0.5mm of clearance, it won't go anywhere as long as it stays put during install. The 86cc with it's gap there hasn't leaked a drop. (Now I've prob jinxed myself.)

I was just gonna try that, but you and Ryan have both mentioned dowels very recently so I figured I might as well go all the way. I'm quite tired of taking it apart and putting it back together, but this thing has to be capable of sealing. It's irritating for something that should be simple to be so hard.



I just took a 6 mile spin on the 86cc. No reason other than I really wanted to ride. Took it through town and annoyed the locals. Went on a side road and did 2 passes from a stop and it did break up a little tonight. Held it WOT leaving town up to 60MPH at 10,900RPM. It's in the 60s now, but the coolant never even hit 110F and I let it warm up for a minute before I left too.

[90GTVert]

I've actually tried to film this whole process with the 86cc. Normally I don't because it slows it all down and I'm more likely to forget things when I'm worrying about video, but I've never done essentially a whole engine on video and it was new to me so I figured it could be interesting for some to watch how green I am with anything that's not from China or Taiwan. If you're interested in that, here's a link to the first vid.

youtu.be/CjXkIOpW02U


Speaking of forget... When I was editing that video, I looked at the exhaust port's bridge and realized that I never drilled the piston where it corresponds to the bridge. At this point, I don't plan to pull it apart to do so. I guess we'll find out if that's a death sentence for the engine or not.

[oldgeek]

Great video!

[Kenho21]

Oh sweet! I honestly anticipate your videos more than any other channel on Youtube and I watch A LOT of Youtube. Haven't even turned my TV on in about 6 months I'd say. Probably because they're always so polished, relevant and you are too busy actually doing stuff to constantly pump out videos so the suspense builds haha. Excited for another series!

[90GTVert]

After the ride last night where I saw that it actually could get 60MPH with the 8g sliders, I wanted to make damn sure I wasn't leaving a lot of power on the table by limiting it with heavy weights. I tried both 7g and 5.4g. Had to mix rollers and sliders for the 5.4g because I have nothing lighter than 7g sliders.

I actually wasn't sure if it was quicker or not with the 7g. It felt like maybe it was, but sometimes it's hard to tell and it can feel faster if it sounds faster or hits harder for even a short time. The 5.4g was basically just to be certain.

I'm certain about the 5.4g being too light. I got to 46.5MPH @ 12,050 at one point and wouldn't hold it anymore. It was clearly way too much RPM and when it revved high out of the powerband it vibrated enough that I didn't want to hold it for no reason. It would hit hard for a second and then it was revved too much to pull well. It would wheelie quite well up to 10MPH or so. That's basically how all of my setups that will power wheelie are. Pretty much they will pull up the front until 10MPH because after that the clutch is engaged and they can't do it well without that snap. Of course I rode through the yard to do a few more little wheelies. It actually felt like it 103 on it's good days a bit then, snatching the front up and feeling like it could prob toss me off if I had the balls not to let off. Thought I was gonna crash once. Got kinda crooked and then when I came down the shocks really gave a lot. The right side is getting weak from fluid loss. I need to stop ignoring those seals. I've got little spots all in the area of the right front shock where T2 parks.

I wanted to be sure I wasn't wrong about what I was feeling so I went through my videos and carefully timed acceleration runs for the last 3 sets of weights that I've tried. I'd like to know what the 8.5s do as well, but it doesn't hit off the line with them so it wouldn't be a great comparison and I never did any full runs with those because I was mostly trying to get it to hit at the time. Anyway, here are the 2 run averages (back to back in opposite directions).

	0-30MPH	0-40MPH	0-50MPH
5.4g	5.8	8.5	N/A
7g	4.3	6.0	12.4
8g	4.2	6.4	10.8

Those results pretty much tell me that I was correct that it's not going to like to rev high like it would if it had more full on race parts. The 8g maxed around 10,900 @ 60. The 7g maxed at 11,390 @ 57 and again the 5.4g maxed over 12,000 @ 46. So I still think the range that I should try to keep it in will be about 8,000-11,000, with peak probably more like 10,500. If I end up making changes that can let the 8.5g weights hit off the line, then it may even like those which rev just slightly less than the 8g. Could also be that the 7s are just pulling out of their power near the 50MPH range so it would be the quickest around town with 7.5g or so. The clutch is supposed to show up tomorrow, so any more fine tuning will come after I see if I can get anything out of this clutch. At least now I have some before/after data so I won't have to go by purely feel to have an opinion on the clutch.