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Post by Lucass2T on Nov 29, 2019 2:25:53 GMT -5
Im on yt everyday, whatching all sorts of video's.
Especially with the more serious and/or educational vids i just never read the comments. They add NOTHING lol.
Id even disable them if i were you Brent. Send those with questions here, to the forums. If they are serious enough they will take the effort to register and open a topic and read the comments.
Forget about the comments on yt, they're just a bunch of BS.
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 29, 2019 9:34:29 GMT -5
We've been over this a bunch, but I'm not letting stuff bother me so much but I still read them. I do have people that encourage me or show appreciation there as well. Some comments are trying to help, but it often feels like they think I have absolutely no idea what I'm doing. Maybe that's what happens when you admit that you don't know everything and show some fails. I guarantee that even the people building the fastest scoots still screw up. They just aren't likely to let you know.
I was mostly posting that last bit about no tools to see if there was something I was unaware of 'cause I couldn't figure out how you'd ever set an iggy up with no tools. I guess some people just aren't happy unless it comes out of the box and goes straight on.
Best thing I can figure would be to pay someone to install it. Only cash/credit required there. I was wondering myself about an easier way earlier. Seems like a keyway could be cut if you really wanted to bolt it on. I was mostly pondering this because I take stuff apart more than I'd really like and it is definitely a bonus to just slide on a rotor. As long as it was close, the adjustment in the stator could make minor changes as needed. Without the key, the rotor still goes on wherever if needed. I'm guessing there's a reason for all of the inner rotors not having keys. My assumption is greater adjustability, but maybe there's more to it? I don't know that I'd actually go through trying to cut a keyway though. I don't think it would be incredibly difficult with my rotary tool attachment for the lathe. At least not the cutting. Accuracy... that's probably a different story.
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Post by hannozero on Nov 29, 2019 12:32:25 GMT -5
hi guys, greatings from serbia! just a little help to summarize the history of T2 cause i'm really interested in it, please correct me if i'm wrong  - first engine case was a 90cc probably polaris 1e50QMF -> tuned to 103cc with engine porting and matching - from 103cc to 110cc it was only a cylinder / piston replacement on the same 1e50QMF case - tpr 86 has been fitted on a regular 1e40qmb minarelli 49cc case after prting and matching is it possible to fit 103/110cc after porting a 1e40qmb as you probably did for the tpr86 instead of buying a 1e50QMF ? |
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 29, 2019 13:29:51 GMT -5
hi guys, greatings from serbia! just a little help to summarize the history of T2 cause i'm really interested in it, please correct me if i'm wrong - first engine case was a 90cc probably polaris 1e50QMF -> tuned to 103cc with engine porting and matching  -No. I got lucky and got an actual 90cc Vento Triton For $62 locally. Someone on the old ScootDawg forum pointed it out, noting that it was close to me. We just thought it was a cheap second 49cc Triton project for me. Turned out to be a 90cc, which I believe was for the Mexican market and not the US. Related oddity; I thought it would give me a problem when my state decided to require registration for "mopeds" a few years later, but it registered fine just like a 49cc. - from 103cc to 110cc it was only a cylinder / piston replacement on the same 1e50QMF case - No. Originally just shy of 90cc. It took a longer stroke and larger bore to get to 103cc. Then an even longer stroke to get to 110cc. The 48mm stroke cranks and cylinders that work with them are the hardest to come by of the big Minarelli stuff. At this point, most of it is getting a bit tougher than it was just a few years ago though. Anyway, check this out : 49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/2627/minarelli-jog-engine-displacement-chart- tpr 86 has been fitted on a regular 1e40qmb minarelli 49cc case after prting and matching is it possible to fit 103/110cc after porting a 1e40qmb as you probably did for the tpr86 instead of buying a 1e50QMF ? -Yes. I've had a lot of 90cc+ setups and I have only used 2 actual 90cc engines. Most of mine start out as a 1E40QMB. Not much difference in how the cases are cut for the 86cc vs a 103cc. I'd likely buy more 90cc cases, but you can't really find them in long case. If you are building a small frame scoot that uses a short case, then it's not as tough because that's what the 90cc ATVs tend to use. Adly and similar 90cc (Can-Am/Bombardier) ATVs are the only possibly reasonably priced source for long case 90s that I know of unless you happen to get lucky. Those are the "stretched" short case design though. So they can fit a 12" wheel/tire combo just fine, but they stretch the CVT area. Doesn't sound bad till you realize you have pretty much no choices for a belt. Over Range kit; forget it or plan to spend a long time looking for a belt that may work. Even the stock belts are more expensive and harder to find. |
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Post by hannozero on Nov 29, 2019 14:28:31 GMT -5
hi guys, greatings from serbia! just a little help to summarize the history of T2 cause i'm really interested in it, please correct me if i'm wrong - first engine case was a 90cc probably polaris 1e50QMF -> tuned to 103cc with engine porting and matching  -No. I got lucky and got an actual 90cc Vento Triton For $62 locally. Someone on the old ScootDawg forum pointed it out, noting that it was close to me. We just thought it was a cheap second 49cc Triton project for me. Turned out to be a 90cc, which I believe was for the Mexican market and not the US. Related oddity; I thought it would give me a problem when my state decided to require registration for "mopeds" a few years later, but it registered fine just like a 49cc. - from 103cc to 110cc it was only a cylinder / piston replacement on the same 1e50QMF case - No. Originally just shy of 90cc. It took a longer stroke and larger bore to get to 103cc. Then an even longer stroke to get to 110cc. The 48mm stroke cranks and cylinders that work with them are the hardest to come by of the big Minarelli stuff. At this point, most of it is getting a bit tougher than it was just a few years ago though. Anyway, check this out : 49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/2627/minarelli-jog-engine-displacement-chart- tpr 86 has been fitted on a regular 1e40qmb minarelli 49cc case after prting and matching is it possible to fit 103/110cc after porting a 1e40qmb as you probably did for the tpr86 instead of buying a 1e50QMF ? -Yes. I've had a lot of 90cc+ setups and I have only used 2 actual 90cc engines. Most of mine start out as a 1E40QMB. Not much difference in how the cases are cut for the 86cc vs a 103cc. I'd likely buy more 90cc cases, but you can't really find them in long case. If you are building a small frame scoot that uses a short case, then it's not as tough because that's what the 90cc ATVs tend to use. Adly and similar 90cc (Can-Am/Bombardier) ATVs are the only possibly reasonably priced source for long case 90s that I know of unless you happen to get lucky. Those are the "stretched" short case design though. So they can fit a 12" wheel/tire combo just fine, but they stretch the CVT area. Doesn't sound bad till you realize you have pretty much no choices for a belt. Over Range kit; forget it or plan to spend a long time looking for a belt that may work. Even the stock belts are more expensive and harder to find. Hi Brent, thanks for the response! so if i start from 1E40QMB i could arrive to 110cc following the calculation at the link ? rigth ? 49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/2627/minarelli-jog-engine-displacement-chartconsidering that they fitted the same frame would be really interesting a comparison between the 110cc version and the 86tpr, what do you think about it? |
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 29, 2019 19:13:11 GMT -5
Yeah, 48mm stroke and 54mm bore in a bored out set of cases will get you 110cc.
I don't have a 110 anymore. Like I said, the stuff for those is harder to come by. My 103cc and the 86cc are very close with the same exhaust and ignition. My 110cc was using a PG exhaust that was not good for as much RPM, but it would keep up with either or edge them out a little based on what numbers I had from it. I don't think the 90s will compete with the TPR 86cc in full trim (racing ignition & exhaust). They're nice setups for putting miles on them and making good power without spending a ton. They aren't really race engines. Transfer area is insufficient for large cc and high RPM. I don't think it would be worth building a 110 at this point, unless you know of a better parts source. You can get 70-86cc stuff for similar money that bolts together. Most of the 90cc stuff that I've had requires adjusting to get it right. Probably because there are multiple stroke lengths in that range. That or because it's mostly Chinese or Taiwan made generic stuff.
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Post by hannozero on Nov 30, 2019 3:13:34 GMT -5
good to know your experience (i'm also a subscriber in 49ccscoot channel) so if i understood correctly 3 of your projects in youtube: 1) project 90cc and upgrades-> starting from stock minarelli 90cc engine (something like 1e50QMF) 2) project 103cc to 110cc -> starting from 1e40qmb 3) project 86tpr -> starting from 1e40qmb the best option in termin of prices and performances till now is the third 86cc tpr ? i would like to start a minarelli project from clean 1e40qmb and i'm considering the different possibilities |
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Post by aeroxbud on Nov 30, 2019 4:16:11 GMT -5
good to know your experience (i'm also a subscriber in 49ccscoot channel) so if i understood correctly 3 of your projects in youtube: 1) project 90cc and upgrades-> starting from stock minarelli 90cc engine (something like 1e50QMF) 2) project 103cc to 110cc -> starting from 1e40qmb 3) project 86tpr -> starting from 1e40qmb the best option in termin of prices and performances till now is the third 86cc tpr ? i would like to start a minarelli project from clean 1e40qmb and i'm considering the different possibilities Most of us stick with the 70cc stuff for a reason. No boring of the cases. Kits are readily available from 6-7 hp right up to over 15hp. The best stuff is liquid cooled. This adds more complexity, and cost if your scooter was not liquid cooled from the factory. Building a scooter is not cheap. Exhaust, carb, cylinder and crank can be quite pricey on their own. Add in a variator and gears $$$. When I built my Aerox, I think it was about $800 just in engine parts. That was a long time ago. |
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Post by 190mech on Nov 30, 2019 7:04:10 GMT -5
Getting back to ignition timing,the common way to express crank relationship to ignition is in degrees.A distance measurement is fine if all dimensions are fixed,like a production built engine.If the strokes or rod length are changed,that measurement will also change,so with the great number of aftermarket crank strokes and rod lengths I'm thinking the distance numbers may leave something out..This free program shows the small changes; www.torqsoft.net/piston-position.html   |
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 30, 2019 8:06:51 GMT -5
Getting back to ignition timing,the common way to express crank relationship to ignition is in degrees.A distance measurement is fine if all dimensions are fixed,like a production built engine.If the strokes or rod length are changed,that measurement will also change,so with the great number of aftermarket crank strokes and rod lengths I'm thinking the distance numbers may leave something out..This free program shows the small changes; www.torqsoft.net/piston-position.html and I were just talking about this in the Youtube comments... pito: If you want an absolute TDC measurement I reccomend using the piston stop method and a degree wheel. Rotate till you hit the stop, roll it the other way hit the stop and split the difference in half. The dwell at TDC means you can easily have a few degrees of dead spot. All that said in my own video I use this method as well because I am lazy. me: What good would that do when the spec is in mm? If it were in degrees from TDC, I get it. You'd want to know true TDC. It will be the same distance in mm from TDC if you're anywhere in that range where the piston dwells for a few degrees. It actually surprised me at first when I got into this and realized the margin for error. Just seems like they'd let you setup a degree wheel and tell you it's x degrees BTDC. Could run a calculator, but apparently they (and as I understand it) most other racing iggy manufacturers just tell you distance specs. pito: You could I guess in theory do the piston stop method, fix the crank, exchange the piston stop for a dial gauge, zero it and then set your mm.. I'm already tired writing that. Because the dwell still relates to crank degrees. So your tdc is not the "true" tdc. But for all intent it's probably close enough. me: I was actually making another video in the garage just hours ago about finding true TDC with a dial indicator and checking that against a piston stop and just zeroing a dial indicator. What I can tell you from that, is that it's still the same distance from TDC with it zeroed with the indicator or using true TDC, because one is a measurement of distance from the top of the piston's travel and the other is the amount of degrees of crankshaft rotation from true TDC. pito: Like i said it's barely worth the effort, but it can be in some cases! It's going to depend on your rod stroke ratio. short stroke long rod motors could add up! Here is a neat calculator that can help with numbers to show exactly what I am describing. www.torqsoft.net/piston-position.htmlIf you put in 44mm stroke, 80 mm rod, .35 angle and set it on piston position. Calculate it then change your rod length to 105. One has your piston juuuuust starting to move and the other one hasn't started yet. You can also use this to tell you exactly how much dwell you have at TDC. Remember it will be x2 whatever the angle is. This is what I mean by true TDC.. in the end it doesn't really matter, if you math it out and round it relates to about a degree of error. Not enough to worry about. Just figured I would mention it before someone tells you your piston is in backwards.  me: Thanks. I think it's pointless at best to worry about true TDC when they give you specs like this. There's all of this stuff about this spec works better for a stroker and this for stock stroke and maybe somewhere in between for mild strokes. They never mention connecting rod length, compression, RPM, fuel, etc.. It really doesn't sound like an exact science to me. They seem like specs to hopefully put you where it runs OK and doesn't scatter engine bits everywhere on the first run for the majority of users. pito: For sure! its a mostly foolproof method for setting timing within a few degrees of "right". Your points touch on why I dislike mm before TDC as an absolute setting. Gimme the curve and a timing light and let me play any day! |
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Post by 190mech on Nov 30, 2019 10:45:58 GMT -5
Looks like you guys already hashed that out!No world class tuner talks of ignition timing in distance measurements,always degrees..Most of the race bike service manuals give a mm before TDC for setup,then a timing light test at xx degrees at xxxxx rpms..Without an actual stated timing curve,there is no way of knowing what the ignition does at any RPM while running..I'd HAVE to make me a run chart and graph the thing before doing any miles on it if it was a build I had in my shed...
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 30, 2019 14:26:07 GMT -5
Looks like you guys already hashed that out!No world class tuner talks of ignition timing in distance measurements,always degrees..Most of the race bike service manuals give a mm before TDC for setup,then a timing light test at xx degrees at xxxxx rpms..Without an actual stated timing curve,there is no way of knowing what the ignition does at any RPM while running..I'd HAVE to make me a run chart and graph the thing before doing any miles on it if it was a build I had in my shed... I will attempt to get a timing curve before it goes anywhere. How well that plays out is anyone's guess. Whatever it is, I'll figure out where the MVT marks are aligned on the degree wheel relative to TDC so we know a little more. Now I'm thinking about taking the time to set my indicator up "wrong" on purpose. I know I have about 3 degrees of dwell at TDC. I'm kinda curious to know how much it could be off if I were on the far end of that. What I'm trying to say is; how much different would my 0.35mm mark be if it were 1.5 degrees away from true TDC, right before my digital indicator changes from 0.00mm to -0.01mm. I'm not sure that I'm gonna bother though. Don't know if it's just me, but to my eyes the MVT rotor and stator marks change a lot relative to each other with small positions in reading. I believe that the natural error there could change more than dwell or difference in 0.00 and true TDC for setup. Whatever the case may be, it's all a crutch for big companies with the knowledge and budget to give better specs... but not bothering or thinking we're all too dumb to use a light or wheel or maybe the lawyers don't like anything too specific for liability? Just make it more vague and then claim they didn't do it right. |
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Post by 190mech on Nov 30, 2019 16:58:20 GMT -5
Not too many years back aftermarket ignition folks posted what their stuff would do with graphs and numbers,now its "line up the marks" and ride...Programmable ignitions are the go for all the race folks as they know improper setup will lose power or smoke pistons.Like you said if the specs are in a 'grey area',then the user is at fault if there is damage from a "performance" ignition...
PS,Love your Smoking Section Please!I'll sit there too!!
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Post by Lucass2T on Dec 1, 2019 15:44:55 GMT -5
It woul be cool if you build some sort of machine which can dynamicly measure advance.
You would have to bolt the whole ignition system on to it, let a motor spin the rotor up tp lets say 15k rpm and let some sort of basic piece of software read out and show the actual curve.
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Post by 90GTVert on Dec 4, 2019 20:11:10 GMT -5
The engine is finally going back into the scooter. I just came in from replacing what coolant hoses that I can without the water pump installed. Same Gates Safety Stripe heater hose. Claims long service life in cars and trucks, so I'm sure it doesn't need it after 1.5-2 years on the scoot. I figured it wouldn't hurt since I remove and install some parts of it so often and it's $10. Plus, I got rid of my inline fan switch that malfunctioned when I first installed the 86cc.
Hopefully I'll finish installing the engine tomorrow. Feels like everything takes forever right now trying to do video. I had 2 cameras on the engine the other day, filming a degree wheel and the marks on the rotor/stator because I wanted to try true TDC vs TDC in the 0.00mm dwell area to find the difference. Precise views of that will also let me see where I really have it set and if it's close to caluclator numbers for piston position and degrees. Came in spent an hour to transfer files. After 30-60 minutes editing, realized I had bumped my timing pointer trying to get the camera between the wall and the degree wheel I guess. Junk that time/footage. Back out later. Decided to go with 3 cams, adding one on the dial indicator. Then spend a big chunk of a day just editing a few minutes of video because the PC is lagging like crazy with 2 4K parts plus 1 in 1080p and some titles/overlays/masks all going at the same time. Brings the whole project to a crawl and turns days into weeks. Didn't want you to think I put a cover over it for winter just yet.
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