Triton # 2 (T2) 49cc to 110cc & Nearly Everywhere In Between

[stepthrutuner]

We sure don't see it that way here at 49cc Scoot.

[90GTVert]

I dunno what happened to my doppelganger. Haven't seen him for a few days. Just wanted to say hi.

[thatcrazyguy]

Apr 30, 2015 14:03:29 GMT -5 90GTVert said:

I dunno what happened to my doppelganger. Haven't seen him for a few days. Just wanted to say hi.

That looks sick haha

[nelson]

Hell Yes, that's great! 12 gauge, 45 long colt? Chain, sword what else do you need? Man, if you had a leather motorcycle jacket you might just be the leader of a scooter gang I think you have an excessive amount of free time on your hands, that's a good thing to have! SCOOTERGEDDON

[90GTVert]

Those are .500 magnum, 500 grain. Ridiculous.

Apr 30, 2015 20:05:09 GMT -5 nelson said:

Man, if you had a leather motorcycle jacket you might just be the leader of a scooter gang

I have 2 and still it's just me in the gang.

I was moving furniture alone because I don't like to ask for help and cleaning crap up for a yard sale this weekend (hate yard sales). I was tired of the yard sale prep so I armed the scoot. Made me feel better and I figured it would amuse a few of us.

[90GTVert]

Well the one good thing about yard sales (that I was groaning about in the post above) is that they have the ability to turn a huge amount of old junk into new scooter parts. There are more practical things that I should be saving or using the cash for, but those are less fun than scooter stuff.



I am hoping to do a few updates to T2 that will allow it to remain functional for quite a while without me messing with it. The master cylinder should have been done long ago, at least I hope it's the master cylinder, because I can pull the brake lever till it touches the throttle and no amount of bleeding has changed that. I've replaced the fluid and the caliper seemed alright, no leaks. I was talking about replacing it in October and just never wanted to spend anything on it since it does still stop.

As pictured previously in this thread, my tire is on the tread wear indicators. I don't plan to replace it right now, but I wanted to have a tire for it when needed just in case I don't have enough money on hand at the time. Went with another 120/80-12 Kenda. Maybe if I have an odometer that I don't reset like the GPS I'll be able to tell if its' wearing fast or if I'm just racking up miles quickly. The front still looks great. Otherwise I'd consider going back to Michelin Boppers or Pures because I can tell a difference on turns. The dual sport Kendas don't really worry me, but they don't make me all that confident in their abilities either from the way they feel. These are better on dirt or loose stuff, but I'm 95% on asphalt.

I've wanted to replace my current multi-gauge setup for a while now. The CHT is questionable and seems to flutter a lot now so it's hard to read while moving. This is my 2nd GPS regularly mounted to a scooter and I think it's starting to go like the old one. Having them plugged in all the time and the USB connection vibrating inside there makes for loose connections over time. oldgeek was kind enough to repair the last one for me, but eventually it started being unreliable losing signal or not being able to find things. Now this one is constantly telling me I need external power or that power has been lost and the plug feels loose. The Trail Tech TTO tach is still doing fine, but if I'm gonna get a speedo and CHT it might as well be an all-in-one cluster that includes RPM as well.








Since using a Trail Tech Vapor on the TaoTao, I've wanted one for every scoot I own. Multi-function, easy to read day or night (GPS is tough to read in sunlight, TTO stuff requires some external light source), and reliable. Once again, I held off because I didn't wanna spend the money, but I finally decided to go for it. I went with the same kit as the TaoTao since I didn't see one with a 14mm CHT sensor that had the speed sensor like it (I may have just missed it?). I ordered a 14mm thermocouple and I'll have a spare for the TaoTao this way. I also need an extension so the CHT wires can reach the gauge, which I forgot when initially ordering. Altogether it was $140, so a bit pricey but hopefully this one will work as well as the one on the TaoTao. If so it will be money well spent.




I also picked up 7g and 10g DrPulley sliders from Parts For Scooters. The selection of these 19x15.5 sliders, at least in heavy weights, is not good anywhere. I ordered 8.5g sliders from treatland when I ordered the Trail Tech extension that I forgot at first. Between those and some foil or other modding methods, I should be able to get in tune if the requirements are similar to the DrPulley rollers I've been using. I've used sliders in everything else for years now, and seeing rollers constantly get flat spots is annoying me... plus replacement costs when they get bad. I've heard some say they don't like sliders in the Malossi OR variator, but I'm gonna see for myself. If they perform about the same and don't constantly wear, I'll be very happy.


Finally, I wanted to get another cylinder kit. The Hoca kit I'm using has held up well and is still doing alright even though I've put it through 2 or more piston failures and some soft seizes as well as many miles of hard use. I just don't have the low RPM grunt that I want out of my setup though. I didn't check the numbers on the last assemblies, but whenever my last build was with this cylinder that I did check they were more than I'd want for something that maxes out by around 9000RPM even using minimal spacing just to get reasonable squish clearance. The current kit is a Hoca standard cylinder, so I wanted to try the tall or "high" Hoca 54mm cylinder. Normally using a cylinder for a shorter stroke with a longer stroke will drive durations up, so I figured the tall cylinder meant for a 45mm stroke should let me get the mild numbers I want and make great low end power with the Phongeer exhaust.




T2 more naked than usual.

[niz76]

Gettin some upgrades and one-on-one time with it's human- T2 has gotta love it! Glad the he!! known as yardsale got ya something fun!

[aeroxbud]

Far more fun spending money on scooter parts than things we really need!
I thought you had brought the tyre for another burnout

[90GTVert]

May 9, 2015 11:41:48 GMT -5 aeroxbud said:

I thought you had brought the tyre for another burnout

It's me so you can never rule that out.



Before removing the old cylinder, I got the degree wheel out to find out exactly where it was with the regular 77mm tall 54mm Hoca.





I have done a little to the exhaust port in the past. The replacement piston is a Hoca and is unmodified other than smoothing some sharp edges. I was using Fel Pro 3157 gasket material (0.8mm uncompressed) and an 0.3mm thick aluminum spacer. The gasket and spacing were used to get sufficient squish clearance with the standard 90cc cylinder on a 45mm stroke crank. Still the piston has 0.8mm positive deck height so I was using a head that I cut from a 70cc head to get appropriate squish without having to raise the cylinder and durations even more.




A look at BDC :




As shown I was getting 188° exhaust and 132° transfer duration. Not as bad as I thought it was, but prob not ideal considering I want to make my peak power somewhere between 8,000-9,000RPM with good power below there too. Below are a few looks at the current exhaust ports as a reminder to what has been done and to compare later to the stock tall cylinder if you'd like.








Here's a look back at some info from Project 90 when I installed this Hoca cylinder onto a 42mm stroke crank. The durations with the supplied base gasket were 178° exhaust and 124° transfer, very mild and good for low revs and I reported it working okay up to 9,000RPM with a stock pipe. The piston edge was right at the deck. The ports were a little low with just the supplied base gasket. This is sort of what I was hoping for with the tall cylinder meant for longer strokes on my 45mm crank.









Now onto the "high" or tall 54mm Hoca cylinder kit. Unfortunately there were no gaskets in this kit. I'm sure Parts For Scooters would send some if I contacted them, but I have spare head gaskets and some gasket material.




Other than being 79mm tall, it looks the same as the standard cylinder as expected.








In stock form the ports are rough inside and could use some additional chamfer work as well.








Both cylinders are about the same height in total, because the skirts are a little shorter on the tall kit. You may also notice how much difference there is in stock skirts vs all the material cutaway on my current cylinder. Not sure if I'll be that aggressive modifying the tall cylinder skirts or not. It has held up fine modded though.




I started out checking durations with just an 0.3mm spacer in place since I had no base gasket already cut. I was surprised and disappointed to see that with just 0.3mm below the cylinder durations were 183° exhaust and 132° transfer. I took the spacer out so there was no gasket or anything under the cylinder and re-tried. That gave me a very small change to 182° exhaust and 132° transfer. I checked and rechecked these numbers because they seem so far off of what I was expecting given previous experience with the shorter cylinder and the stroke it was designed for.

Here are looks at the piston at BDC with nothing under the cylinder. The piston crown is about level with the lowest point of the exhaust port floor and just a hair shy of level with the transfers.






The edge of the piston crown sits about 0.55mm below deck.




Here's a port map :




Kinda sucks. I would not have spent $175 on this cylinder had I known the durations would be like this without anything under the cylinder even. I'm not exactly sure what I want to do just yet. I am getting 5° less than my modified standard cylinder, but the same transfer durations only no gaskets here while the standard is spaced up. What I was really hoping to end up at was about 180/128 because I wanted to see what it did for the low rev output.

The base could be cut, but not by me and not in short order (car show this coming weekend) and of course that costs money which I've spent enough of at this point. I guess it's still a little better than what I had and I may see gains from having better clearances in a cylinder that's not all scarred up.

It looks like a standard cylinder would be easier to mod for low durations on a 45mm stroke crank for the avg Joe, though it still takes plenty of work. A head would have to be cut with a large recess to get reasonable squish clearance. The issue I run into there is that to make a combustion chamber that puts compression about where I'd like, I end up cutting away spark plug threads. I've ran an extra washer under plugs before so the base didn't stick out, but I don't know that adding even more and reducing threads screwed in is a great idea.

I'll prob stick with the tall cylinder just because it's not beat up and offers some slight improvement toward RPM levels I would be shooting for, but I don't know if I'll see much change.

[aeroxbud]

Oh well still worth fitting even if its not what you hoped for.

[90GTVert]

I marked the base of the cylinder using a spacer matched to the cases and marked the exhaust with a gasket so it would match the PG exhaust better.






I got the base most of the way done and was working on extending a corner of the boost port toward the bore when somehow I managed to get the bit to snag, bend, and break the flex shaft of the Foredom. You can see the marks from where it deflected.








I was only running at 1/3 speed on the controller, trying to go easy and not cut away too much at once when that happened. I figured it would be a $50 shaft or something, but luckily a replacement is $11. The bad thing is the Foredom only runs with a flex shaft and I don't have another rotary tool of any sort. Wouldn't be a big deal, but I had hoped to do this before the engine went in and have it tuned and tested before next weekend when there's a big car show and 200 mile ride.

I switched over to a drill and a 1/4" cutter and took the exhaust port exit most of the way out to the marks. It's harder to control and too large to the the other things I hoped to do. I may just do some chamfer work with small files and call it good enough for now. The car show is, sadly enough, one of the only things I look forward to all year so I'm not up for missing it over some blending that may not even make a difference I can feel.

[190mech]

Strange stuff!Almost like they just didnt cut the cyl base as far during production,yet kept the same port layout!!

[2TDave]

Woohoo scooter parts!!! Are you running the 10.13:1 gears Brent?

[iwiketuddlz]

Man I always love reading Brent's threads...so much detail and skill.... Keep up the great work.!! Happy scooting..Gota love new parts...

[90GTVert]

May 9, 2015 20:16:13 GMT -5 2TDave said:

Woohoo scooter parts!!! Are you running the 10.13:1 gears Brent?

Yeah. Only about 55MPH max with the 13.55s. Not a lot faster with the last cylinder and the 10.13s, but at least it could do 60.