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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 15, 2023 21:54:38 GMT -5
.........................Another issue... The spark plug cap came off around 12,000RPM a couple of times. Didn't really click on. Replaced the cap and plug. Good to go... BUT, I need more caps. I have used NGK LB05EP for years on scoots. They are now discontinued. I tried looking at other NGK options that may work and it looks like NGK isn't making any of them. There are knockoffs on amazon. Multiple reviews say the resistance is all over the place. Anywhere from dead short to 11kĪ©. Even worse than that perhaps is that they don't seem trustworthy to hold up. Poorly made according to reviews. Anyone else use these caps and find a quality replacement? 14mm plug, terminal nut, screw onto wire, preferably waterproof (basically just rubber boots.) and 5kĪ© -- though I may be willing to try a different resistance if I can find something made by a trusted brand or tested on high rev stuff. There's so much vibration with these things that I have to change them regularly and I don't see something poorly made holding up long and would likely cause a lot of headaches. I also could not find the NGK stuff anywhere, now I know why. I ordered this Malossi plug and wire (5519221) from Scooterpartsco.com I think they have the cheapest prices on Malossi I have seen anywhere and they are in my state so shipping is quick. It seems to be working fine for me and not constantly twisting, which is what destroys them IMO. It's description reads 5 ohm but I think they meant 5K ohm? It was $20 plus shipping, they have others without the wire. EDIT: I just noticed it says 5K right on the plug cap. Thanks. Iām hoping to find caps because I have to replace them so regularly that $20 is a lot. BTW NGK CR4ā¦ if they havenāt discontinued that tooā¦ is another option for cap and wire. It was similar price or less, but right now itās $30+ on Amazon.
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Post by Lucass2T on Nov 16, 2023 5:31:43 GMT -5
I need more caps. I have used NGK LB05EP for years on scoots. They are now discontinued. I tried looking at other NGK options that may work and it looks like NGK isn't making any of them. How many do you need? 10? 100? They are still available everywhere here. I can send you a box if you like. You could also use the regular LB05E ones. Those are also discontinued? Myself I used the Malossi, Champion and NGK silicone ones. Didn't like them. Like you, I like the good old standard caps the best.
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Post by Lucass2T on Nov 16, 2023 5:32:36 GMT -5
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Post by aeroxbud on Nov 16, 2023 6:19:40 GMT -5
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Post by 190mech on Nov 16, 2023 6:26:40 GMT -5
Question; Are you guys running the same pipes? If not that could cause your different tuning issues..Too much headpipe taper can cause transfer short circuiting resulting in a lean cylinder mixture, also the wrong size tailpipe restrictor will make for hot running, pipe and cylinder should be matched for the best results..
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 16, 2023 7:02:55 GMT -5
NGK's site says LB05E is also discontinued. It looks like they've just quit making caps. On their site it's either in stock or discontinued, which makes me think when the stock runs out they switch over to discontinued like the rest. There is an L05EA, but I'm not sure what it means when the plug size indicator is absent. www.ngk.com/plug-caps-ngkThanks for the links fellas. Question; Are you guys running the same pipes? If not that could cause your different tuning issues..Too much headpipe taper can cause transfer short circuiting resulting in a lean cylinder mixture, also the wrong size tailpipe restrictor will make for hot running, pipe and cylinder should be matched for the best results.. No. I'm still using the Malossi MHR exhaust made for the RC-1. Ryan has what he thinks is a one-off 8.1 made or modified for an RC-1. If mine's doing anything weird due to pipe design, then I'd wonder why it's been fine for 2500 miles with 2 different exhausts on the 28mm VHST and this carb hates it. I'm pretty well lost on where to go. I see 3 potential courses ATM. This whole deal seems more difficult than it should, but this is how things go for me regularly. - Try the needle with no main jet tuning method and see if that gets me anywhere. - Continue to tune and ignore EGT. After being used to EGT and seeing that it's easy to go too lean on long WOT runs or part throttle, that one's kinda scary and not a long term solution. - Put the 28mm VHST back on and see if everything's suddenly OK again with EGT. I did try to look in at the piston crown while the exhaust was off as Ryan suggested because of the alleged high temps I've seen. I can't really tell how it's marked from the vantage point that I can get there, but I do see that the ring and skirt look OK. I looked in the plug hole what I could. Can't see much there either, because I can't get my head in the right spot but I could see the C marking in the center still looks crisp so I would imagine I haven't done any sort of melting damage. That seems to point to the EGT possibly being false, though I have never held it at high EGT long and (thankfully) have never melted a piston since having EGT so I don't know how long it really takes. I know I've ran it up over 1350 before when tuning with the 28mm on long runs. From earlier tests, my best average 1/8 miles came from a 215 main jet... but average EGT at 60 in acceleration runs was 1339. With the VHST my best results were usually from just below 1200 to ~1250 at 60MPH. Those kinds of numbers are also required if I want to be able to run it out past the 1/8 mile. From that, it's either running hotter exhaust temps with the big carb or suddenly EGT is off by about 100F. The 250 (2.5mm drilled) MJ did get me to ~1250 @ 60, but that's still too hot to run out farther and the idea of a 2.5mm main jet with a 2.6mm needle jet seems odd to me as well. The Keihin jets, at least Stage6, are 2.49mm inside the threads so they were never intended to go that big... plus Keihin doesn't make any jets over 230 for these.
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 16, 2023 17:13:43 GMT -5
The CVT was disabled to test the ignition without the rear tire spinning. I just put a drive boss and spacers and the fixed half and pawl on so I could kick start it. Since it was like that and the needle first tuning method says to run it on the stand for most of it's tests; I thought it made sense to try that now if I ever was going to. My neighbors are probably well tired of hearing this thing idle and rev. I've been out there for 4-5 hours running it off and on up on the work bench. The 2nd day in a row of having my head a few feet from the exhaust outlet and giving myself a smoke bath for long periods at a time.
The needle jet and/or get needle tuning is first, with the main jet removed from the carb. In this case, I have 11 needles and 0 needle jets so needle tuning it is.
It always has the needle clip in the center... which is way too rich with any needle I've tried to actually ride it. Whatever they say though. I started with the JJL and to save time I'll just tell you that every needle swap had the clip in the center.
It was quite rich by 1/4 throttle or just after. Horribly rich by 1/2 and all the way to WOT to the point that it surged and poured smoke.
OK. The method demands going leaner (which would be larger) with needle diameter (does not specify which diameter so I assume straight diameter) till it will run clean to roughly 3/4 throttle and it should then be very rich after 3/4.
I switched from the 2.46mm JJL to 2.47mm JJM. Same thing.
I switched to 2.48mm JJN. Pretty similar but it did seem lean near idle.
2.50mm JJQ was the next step up. About the same as above.
The JJS at 2.52mm is the largest straight diameter needle that I have so I put it in. Pretty much the same.
OK. So an HKJ needle is only 2.44mm straight diameter, but way larger at the tip. Most are below 1mm and it's 1.17mm, so I figured I might as well try that and go as lean as I could on that end. That was the first real improvement. It ran very rich at 1/2 throttle, but it did run and rev without surging. By 3/4 it was surging and so on.
That's as good as I think it's gonna get with any needles that I have on hand as far as meeting the criteria for selection via this method. I think it probably needs and even thicker overall needle to do what the author says for the signs of the right needle jet/jet needle.
This is the opposite of what I'd think it needs based on how it has acted with main jets. If anything, I'd expect it to need thinner needles to let more fuel past at high throttle so it didn't need gigantic main jets. Whatever. Let's follow the method. Can't be worse than what I've been dealing with. OK. Sure it could be.
Next up is pilot selection. To make it short and sweet; it's pretty standard but the author wants you to hold 1/8 throttle to dial in the pilot jet so best RPM is between 1.25 and 2.25 turns out on the mixture screw. Go up or down as needed with pilot jet sizes till you're in that range.
Holding this at 1/8 throttle is zinging. Not doing that for long periods of time. I held it just above idle for the adjustments. Wound up going from a 55 pilot to 50 to 45 to 40. I got good RPM in the sweet spot with the 40.
That's where I left off. It says to test for the main jet on the stand. That worries me more than the rest. From what I've seen, you can get away with a much leaner main jet on the stand. All settings are likely OK more toward lean without the load, but that one has been dramatic at times from what I've seen. I might go over it a bit that way to ballpark it at least. I have 0 faith in trying to set the MJ on the stand though, based on just whether it revs clean or not. Just paying close attention to the main jet section makes me think the whole thing is BS and the author was clueless if I'm honest... but maybe a miracle will happen and it'll run like a superbike once set this way.
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 17, 2023 19:56:26 GMT -5
The alternate carb tuning method wants you to look for a jet that just stops bogging while going to WOT on the stand. Should run clean throughout the throttle range. I think it's BS, but lemme try it anyway.
I started with a 200. Way rich WOT. 180. Better, but still rich WOT. 170. Similar. May have revved a little more. 150. The smallest jet in the S6 kits. Still not clean WOT.
I stuck with a 150. That seems like it should be very lean, and it's still not lean enough for this method. Not going to the 122 that came with the carb.
I took it down the road and I was surprised that the throttle response was very crisp and clean at low positions. Then I held it 1/2 throttle for a few seconds. It reached 1303F EGT and died. Oh crap. Seemed like a soft seize. Restarted fine after I coasted to a stop. I went to WOT thinking, "Fine, I'll just focus on WOT" and it was clearly lean so I just turned around.
I put in a 170 main jet. I had to shut it down before the 1/8 mile because it was hot, but it ran OK.
Went up to 190. Felt strong, but still too hot for full passes.
I went all the way to a 230. I skipped 210 because I run out of daylight so quick this time of year and I wanted to see if it was going to cool off or not. It did not. It did run cool enough to just barely make it full passes before I had to get out according to EGTs in the mid to upper 1300s. Times were good, but still allegedly hot so I didn't get anywhere on that issue.
I will say that I think the needle first tuning method could be of some use. That remains to be seen for me because it may be too lean, but I haven't fiddled with needle positions or tried 1/2 throttle with the larger jets. I do have a much better return to idle than I had before while having very crisp response. The HKJ needle wouldn't have even been on my RADAR. That said, forget the main jet on the stand stuff. Unless I'm missing something about the method, it's nonsense. I cannot see a main jet that is just rich enough not to bog at all going to WOT on the stand being rich enough. I'm no pro, but I've tuned enough to know better. Gave it a try just to see if I was missing out on some magic. No. It's just like I've told 100 people over the years... stop trying to pick a main jet without load. It doesn't work.
I had an hour-ish left. Decided to try to swap the 28mm VHST back on quickly for a sanity check. It was running well when removed and not hot so if it ran hot then I'd know the EGT was off or something else was up. If it ran cool then I'm way off with the PWK somewhere. I added an extra throttle adapter before the normal bent one in the cap to expedite the process so I didn't have to swap cables or take the throttle apart to see if I could take up more free cable.
I turned the fuel on and the VHST didn't disappoint. It poured gas out as fast as the fuel lines could move it. I shut the fuel off and hit the bowl with a ratchet handle a few times. Turned the fuel back on and it was fine. Fired it up and it didn't want to idle really steady. Tried to adjust it and got it working well enough. Pulled out of the driveway and it felt pretty strong. Turned onto the next road and the wheel came up with mild throttle and then it fell on it's face like it was running out of fuel. By then it was time for dinner and sunset.
I'm really leaning toward false EGT readings... but it did seem to soft seize on me just as it hit 1303 1/2 throttle so.... š¤·āāļø I was also glad to get the on stand tuning done. It can't be fun for neighbors... and I'm in the country so we aren't rubbing elbows or anything. Can't imagine trying this with something like this setup in a town/city/suburb. This thing makes a wonderful noise going WOT with no CVT but it's damn loud.
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Post by Lucass2T on Nov 18, 2023 3:26:40 GMT -5
Have you enquired about egt's and various measuring equipment on kart/superkart forums? I know egt's are widely used on superkarts. There might be a rich community somewhere. Or maybe drive up to a go-kart track and ask some people for their experiences. Or relocate the egt nose. Or just go all out and buy an AIM setupš¤š¤š¤
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 18, 2023 8:39:54 GMT -5
The reason that I won't go to changing the EGT probe depth right off is that it is exactly how it was and now reading high so I would like to see if I could find out why rather than just moving the probe to make it satisfy what I expect to see. It's been setup at the same location and depth since day 1 with the MHR and was essentially the same with the TPR.
Hopefully the VHST will cooperate and I can at least see what it's doing. Hard to imagine it won't read high but I'd like to see.
I thought about the "extension" cable or connectors being a possibility... but when I tested in flames I used just the sensor to the multimeter and used the full setup with extension to the gauge and both seemed pretty close. I may get a couple more connectors and make another extension to test just in case. The extension is really just the full length of cable that came on the sensor. I cut it near the engine and added connectors for ease of install/removal long ago and nothing changed when I did that.
Boiling water is still the only thing I know to put it in that is definitely a controlled temp. As I said earlier, I wish there were something closer to operating temps that was so specific in temp... but I'm not sure if you can use percent difference at a lower temp to tell accuracy at higher temps or not.
I think I will at least contact The Sensor Connection (where I buy these sensors) if the readings are indeed similar with the VHST and see if they have anything helpful to share.
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 18, 2023 12:24:38 GMT -5
Treatland.tv has NGK LB05E-R spark plug caps. Basically like what I had but not rated waterproof (though the rubber bits look just like the ones that make the P designated caps waterproof) and they are red/maroon. They also have a 15% off Thanksgiving sale (code "kittens") so I ordered 16 of them (~$100). Didn't really wanna spend that much, but if my next best option is $20 wire/cap combos... Hopefully that'll hold me till either NGK changes their mind and makes more or a quality replacement is found. www.treatland.tv/NGK-red-spark-plug-boot-LB05E-R-p/ngk-plug-boot-lb05e-r.htm
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 18, 2023 17:17:48 GMT -5
Alright, let's get weird.
I cleaned the VHST up this morning. Took it down the road and it runs well. It's very windy and only with the tail wind can it sort of match the good times from some PWK runs, so score a point for the PWK. However, it's not hitting 1400 degree temps. It's in the 1200s at 60MPH during WOT acceleration runs like it was before.
The good news is that I guess that eliminates the EGT as the cause of the high temps.
The bad news is that I don't know why it's like this. I hit high temps with my PWK and filter or Ryan's so it's not specifically my carb or filter setup. Ryan has ran the PWK the whole time he's had an RC-1 and he sees normal temps with much more standard jetting.
If it didn't seem to make me quicker I'd probably give up on the big carb... but no self respecting performance enthusiast can turn down that sort of dangling carrot. I'm just not sure where to go from here aside from seeing which gigantic jet does best.. but from what I saw before my best times had me in the mid 1300s by 60MPH and nearer 1400 by the 1/8 mile and I have already soft seized (I think) at 1303 1/2 throttle.
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Post by 190mech on Nov 18, 2023 17:36:00 GMT -5
I think EGT is a great way to monitor and tune engines, Wobbly over at KiwiBiker has used that method for tuning the worlds top kart race engines..It is the go-to in aviation also, they can be checked by a good millivolt tester and a chart like this; www.pyromation.com/downloads/data/emfk_f.pdf
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Post by oldgeek on Nov 18, 2023 18:23:01 GMT -5
It seems to want more gas? Give it to it. I feel like trying a larger needle jet is in order. You currently have a 2.6mm NJ that never really has the full flow area of 2.6mm due to at least some of the needle stuffed in it. Maybe try a 2.65mm or 2.7mm? You might have to make one yourself.
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Post by 90GTVert on Nov 18, 2023 19:50:00 GMT -5
It seems to want more gas? Give it to it. I feel like trying a larger needle jet is in order. You currently have a 2.6mm NJ that never really has the full flow area of 2.6mm due to at least some of the needle stuffed in it. Maybe try a 2.65mm or 2.7mm? You might have to make one yourself. With needles made for certain sizes, Iām afraid Iād drown it part throttle. It makes sense for WOT, but Iām a bit worried about opening a can of worms. Iāll have to see what I can find, but IIRC Polini needle jets were sold by outside dimensionsā¦ not even stating ID.
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