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Post by tominbmore on Aug 9, 2014 13:31:53 GMT -5
Hi all,
I've come across what i think is an electrical issue. My scooter is a TGB r50x 49cc, 2007. Two-stroke.
I know jack about scooter maintenance, but the symptoms I got the other day, were:
1) The scooter was running fine. In fact I had just hit 40+ mph on a local city street. 2) I stopped at a light. When I did, and she was idling, the lights started to dim, and the idle went below 1000 rpms, then the engine cut off. 3) It did not cut off super abruptly -- more like frittered away in rev power (with headlight and dash light dimming), then stumbled to a halt. 4) I was able to get it started up again with the ignition start, but only after a few tries. Before it succeeded, it would not quite turn over. 5) I was actually able to get the scooter going, and strangely enough was able to get the engine gas while going up to high 20s in speed. Mind you, the output was nowhere near as strong as it usually is, and I could tell I was almost kind lucky to get her going at all. But when I had to come to a stop at the light, I could already sense that the scooter wanted to call it quits. The lights dimming issue would appear, but also the throttle clearly wasn't getting juice to the engine somehow. When the scooter hit idle, it immediately wanted to die, and no amount of revving would help. She would just kind of cut out, but more like someone slowly falling into a crawl before lying down, not like someone falling flat on their face, if you follow… it was slightly more gradual, but the result was that she eventually died on me.
I have seen some great vids on here on how to use a Craftsman or other multimeter/voltmeter to test the battery and then test the stator.
I wanted to know if folks could tell me which one I should get (I am on a budget), and also which component I should check first. For example, maybe this is just a spark plug issue? Maybe a wire got dislodged from something or other when I went over a bumpy patch of road, maybe the battery needs a charge from a battery tender, and maybe either the stator or rectifier needs rewiring or replacement?
My knowledge of electronics is rudimentary, and when I see diagrams of how they work I start to feel ill lol. But I am a fairly quick study, so if anyone can tell me: (1) which part I should test first, (2) how to use the voltmeter, (3) which one to buy on a budget, and (4) where to buy locally since I don't want to wait for shipping..
Thank you!!
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Post by tominbmore on Aug 10, 2014 15:43:11 GMT -5
Hi all, I have done some battery tests for DC voltage output. Here's what I got: With the scooter off I got a reading of only 12.14. I looked at this helpful video from 90GTvert, which got the same thing. 49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/714/battery-tests-video He suggested I connect my battery to a battery tender junior charger before proceeding with further battery readings. Should I do the same? I also went ahead and tested the battery with the engine on (before it died). I got a 12 at idle and I got no higher than a 12.5 at high rev. This video said I should get from 13 to 14.5 (with battery starting at a 12.8 voltage reading) 49ccscoot.proboards.com/thread/1796/scooters-charging-system-workingAny thoughts on what's going on? Should I charge battery with battery trickle charger or should I test the stator next? Tx!
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Post by 2TDave on Aug 10, 2014 15:50:39 GMT -5
Your symptoms in your first post don't seem like a electrical issue as much as a carb/fuel issue. Possibly a soft seize. I'd pull the carb and clean it with carb cleaner and compressed air. You'll find more detailed info it the tech section. Have you looked at the plug?
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Post by tominbmore on Aug 10, 2014 16:10:14 GMT -5
Thanks man. Actually just two weeks ago a friend from tjis forum drove to my place and showed me how to check a previous fuel issue. He went to town on the carb and cleaned out the main jet, which was very blocked. He then adjusted the idle screw and air fuel ratio screw. She ran great for two weeks. Thing is, now, when I turn her on and leave her idling, verryyy gradually the idle will drop and lights will get little dimmer then the scooter will cut off. Plus, with this very low battery reading, that's what led me to believe either the battery or the charging system was the culprit.
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Post by 2TDave on Aug 10, 2014 16:31:09 GMT -5
If you didn't clean the entire fuel system I'd do it now. The dirt in the main jet came from the fuel supply. If I clean the windows on my house and the roof is dirty and it rains guess what happens to my clean windows. So clean the tank, fuel filter and carb again. If it persists than at least you can eliminate that. Did you look at the plug? It could be fouling or starving for fuel. It's normal for your lights to dim at idle. I don't think you have an electrical issue.
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Post by tominbmore on Aug 10, 2014 17:01:27 GMT -5
Thank you. The tank already is cleaned out and replaced with 93 grade fuel. Fuel filter has not been cleaned but carb has, just two weeks ago.
As a separate issue, what do you make of the electrical readings above. According to the video links i provided above (posted by 90GTvert), my numbers are too low for the battery.
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Post by scooterpimp on Aug 10, 2014 17:34:51 GMT -5
Charging system is only going to put out good voltage at good idle speed & higher rpms.. (providing battery, regulator etc. Are healthy) I would go with the 2T plan first. is cdi etc. Ac or dc .? Carb & tank were cleaned , but how about a new filter?
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Post by tominbmore on Aug 10, 2014 18:41:37 GMT -5
Thank you!
The thing is, I had a low reading from the battery (a) when the scooter was off (12.15), (b) when the scooter was on and idling (12.03), and (c) when I revved the engine for several seconds (12.45 maximum).
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 12, 2014 11:47:06 GMT -5
I agree with the above that you have another issue causing it to die out. The only way I'd suspect the charging system as the primary cause is if you have a DC CDI, but I don't think you do. If the idle mixture is off a little it can cause this. It could be loading up over time or leaning out. I'd guess loading up first, because if the mix is lean you're more likely to notice RPMs hanging when you let off or RPM may even creep up as it sits. If it's a little rich and idles a while it may slowly die out. One thing that's important is to make sure your idle speed is set at a suitable RPM. I can't say it's a one RPM fits all kind of deal. I've had some that will happily chug away at 1000RPM, but the majority need to be at 1500-2000RPM to idle without fear of cutting out in most conditions. Don't be afraid to blip the throttle vs letting it continue to drop RPM till you get it straightened out. I'm paranoid about mine if the RPM starts to drop and sometimes even hold the throttle just slightly if it worries me. It's better than cutting out at red lights and having to get it started again. Changing weather, inclines, the way you're sitting/leaning can even all affect it. But again, for now the first thing I would do is work with the speed and mixture screws when the scooter is warmed up and see if you can get an improvement. Here's a vid about the idle/mix settings. It's for a Minarelli carb, but should be similar enough to help : www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1vRMERs4RQIf it's still just topping out at 20 though, something else is up. If possible charge the battery and then see how the charging voltages are. Have you installed anything that could cause extra draw on the battery/charging system (12V accessories... chargers, lights, etc...)? Never a bad idea to make sure all connections are tight at the stator, battery, and ground cables.
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Post by Jwhood on Aug 12, 2014 22:20:04 GMT -5
When I'd fixed other issue I notice its still has a 60m.j I also recommended that he should order a bigger jet also those 13mm mikuni carbs are a beotch too tune with such a small m.j I had to basicly put m.j all the way in too get it to idle normal,I also noticed alot of debris in carb bowl but I didn't have enough time too stay and walk him thru cleaning gas tank out,I wouldn't be surprised if jet got clogged up again and or something electrical is not functioning right
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Post by tominbmore on Aug 20, 2014 9:16:41 GMT -5
Hey guys! Sorry for not catching your comments sooner. I was trying to figure out the solution, and started conversing with folks primarily on another forum. Then I had to just put the scoot to the side because (a) i have been so busy at work, and (b) I keep running up against dead ends.
Anyway, 90GTVert, thank you for chiming in. I have been watching a couple of the charging vids you uploaded, and they were very helpful. Jhwood, thanks my man -- you bailed me out the first time. I truly appreciated that. This new issue might be the old issue or a new one, but it is puzzling me.
So, here is an update of symptoms, and the things I have tried. Please let me know if anything here screams an obvious diagnosis...
(1) The dying issue is now far more pronounced. Occasionally I can get the scoot to start, and then, after it sits idle for a minute or two, it will gradually dip below 2000 rpm, then cut off. But for the most part it will start weakly, then die out. Also, most of the time, trying to rev it will help little. Some revving occurs, but mainly it will peter out and die. In other words, unlike what I wrote before, this is not so much an issue of a scooter running fine then slowly dying out. It actually will struggle to start now, and then generally cant sustain a solid hunm for more than a minute most of the time.
(2) I charged my battery, which had had a no-load reading of only 12.15. It is now at anywhere from 12.7 to 12.8, which, according to your video, 90GTVert, is where I want it to be.
(3) Previously, in addition to having a low no-load reading, i was getting very low readings at idle and at high rpms. For example, after starting at the previous read of 12.15, the battery would read at 12 at idle, and then no higher than 12.5 at very high rpms. So, with the battery charged with the battery maintainer, I ran the charging system test again. The results this time were higher, but not by much. At idle, the battery read at 13, and at very high rpms, after a good 30 seconds or so of revving, the voltmeter read only 13.45 max. By comparison, 90GTVert, I noticed in your charging system video that the voltmeter moved up to 14.4 or so very quickly. Mine strained to get to 13.4 or so.
So, I'm initially not sure what to make of that. Thoughts?
(4) I have not yet ran tests on all the various stator cables (to the CDI, to the R/R, to ignition, etc.). I had to put it to the side because of work plus upcoming travel tomorrow. But I have checked connections. The wire connections seem to be solid. It is possible the connection to the R/R might be bad, because I still have not been able to find it!! A guy on another forum thinks it is bolted to the frame probably under the front body plastic. I will check there tonight.
So, what do you guys think based on what I just told you? If you really think that sounds like fuel/fuel mix issues, I will tinker with that. JhWood helped me a lot last time, as he mentioned above. But yeah, maybe that jet got clogged again (baltimore streets are not the cleanest). Maybe also the lean/rich ratio is off, or the idling screw is off. I watched Jhwood get those just right last time, and I was frankly thinking to myself, "No wonder I struggled when trying to do this, the thing is so dang sensitive."
Would love to hear your thoughts based on my updates. I am getting ridiculously frustrated at not being able to get to the bottom of this, and I am no mechanical expert as you probably figured out. :/
tom
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Post by tominbmore on Aug 20, 2014 12:02:14 GMT -5
Also, why is the CDI (AC or DC) relevant? I'd never heard of that before, but two of you raised that possibility above.
My previous CDi was replaced by a local shop that, as JHWood knows, are a bunch of blind squirrels looking for nuts. JhWood caught the carb issue they didnt even see. But in the process they replaced my CDI, which I think was faulty anyway because the scooter would only start from a kick start.
Anyway, my point is that maybe they replaced with a DC CDI, which would make sense since they obviously dont know what they are doing. Should I take a photo and upload it so you can tell me which one it is?
And what does it specifically mean if it is in fact a DC CDI?
Tx!!
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Post by Jwhood on Aug 20, 2014 14:31:38 GMT -5
I think if it was DC it wouldn't fire at all,I still think it is the rectifier or possibly the stator,and or the small 60 m.j you have got clogged again because the gas tank needs tooking off and thoroughly cleaned and fresh gas put in with a bigger jet,there is a known issue with the stator on these specific scooter they fail causing you a multitude of issues,I'll try too make it down this weekend if time permitting and see if I can sort it out!!!
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Post by tominbmore on Aug 30, 2014 10:54:29 GMT -5
Hey guys.
I delayed the electrical tests because my last two weeks have been very busy.
But now I have a white smoke issue...
Two days ago I tinkered with the valves -- I slightly tightened the idle screw and then I ram the test 90GTvert provided above. I actuslly lost track of how much I changed it, but I believe now it is a tad leaner than before. I'm not 100% sure though.
Anyway my point is that she is running fine. I stooped turning the fuel/air screw when the idle rpm started to stay put/drop a tiny bit. Then I think I increased the screw 1/8 to err on the side of slightly rich... like your video suggested, 90GTvert. I rode her around my block and she never died out. Was not sluggish and I also got her to 40 mph on the straightaway. I practiced revving at red lights and the rpm always went back down to 2000 rpm fairly quickly... didn't keep hanging there at 8000 rpm, for example.
However it seemed like morw than usual amount of white-grey exhaust smoke was coming out. I usually don't notice this. I know smoke should appear bc oil gets burned off but this seemed more vidible. Then yesterday after two more days of non use I checked to see if she would run and not die out (like before) but the smoke was definitely more visible.
Any suggestions??
I'm hoping this is just water vapor collection or because I'm running a little rich. Or bc I left her out in rain a couple times without a cover and haven't been riding her at all. Hoping it's not an oil delivery isdue bc I really don't want a NEW probkem lol
Tx!!
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Post by 90GTVert on Aug 30, 2014 12:21:34 GMT -5
Steam should not be thick like smoke and water should burn off rather quickly. You should also be able to smell the difference in steam or oil smoke.
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