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Post by tocoo on Jul 5, 2018 6:56:58 GMT -5
pMy scooter was under the planned maintenance at the 5000 km and the mechanics changed the belt [bando belt 723 17.5 28] by a new one . On the bill I see he also changed the rollers [5grs] and the ''variator guides'' which are 3 little pieces shaped like a V.
Now the scooter has 5500km, and I clearly hear a friction sound from the CVT each time I reach 5000 RPM and above, whether I accelerate or decelerate.
There is no sound at idle, around 2000 RPM and even 6000RPM when the scooter is on the main stand.
SInce the belt has the same dimensions, I think that this sound involves the new parts of the variator and I imagine that putting grease on that could help. however I heard that putting a random grease or too much grease on it is not a good idea because the variator would become very slippy and the scooter would not have traction.
So is it okay to grease the rollers?
Is it okay to grease the axis of the variator on the CVT and the inside of the metallic bore of the variator?
is it okay to grease the outside of the big metallic bore in contact with the variator?
I have silicone oil [in spray], graphite oil [in spray], blue lithium grease in a pot, and silicone grease in a tube. Which grease would be the best if applying grease is a good idea? I expect that whatever grease is applied, it must resist heat, so how hot can the CVT be ?
In the meantime, I will dry clean the variator and the rollers.
On the bill he wrote that he also ''removed the dust from the clutch'' and greased something about the clutch
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Post by tocoo on Jul 5, 2018 10:59:25 GMT -5
I cleaned the metal and plastic parts with acetone and alcohol and also brake cleaner. I even cleaned the spindle and the brass bushing of the variator, but I read here that I shortened the life of my variator. scootdawg.proboards.com/post/544642/threadI also cleaned the bendix and I applied graphite oil on the teeth and on the central axis |
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Post by pinkscoot on Jul 5, 2018 16:16:17 GMT -5
Generally lubrication should be avoided with a variator. That said my Beo came with a variator packed with grease but had a cover and an O-ring to keep it in. What they are referring to is the brass bushing that rotates on the crank shaft. It is impregnated with oil to keep it lubricated. The cleaner will take that oil out of the brass and shorten the life. I have heard of people putting a little graphite from a #2 pencil in the roller ramps to help them move better. You might check that the rollers that were installed are the right size, that can cause a rattle.
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 5, 2018 20:03:58 GMT -5
Generally lubrication should be avoided with a variator. That said my Beo came with a variator packed with grease but had a cover and an O-ring to keep it in. What they are referring to is the brass bushing that rotates on the crank shaft. It is impregnated with oil to keep it lubricated. The cleaner will take that oil out of the brass and shorten the life. I have heard of people putting a little graphite from a #2 pencil in the roller ramps to help them move better. You might check that the rollers that were installed are the right size, that can cause a rattle. I actually thought that as well, but Brent showed us that is not the case. The bushing inserts in variators are in fact, just steel that is finished to look like an oil impregnated bushing. He has a great video that shows how to use a real oil impregnated bushing and how to install one. I have installed 2 thus far in my Koso variators. The cheap steel they use on those do not last at all but, I have been advised that since I only paid like $25 each that they were probably fake copies. Once you pull one of those steel bushings out of the variator, it becomes obvious as it is only bronze colored on the ends and the I.D. you can easily check with a magnet if you , or anyone, does not believe this. Why the Chinese go through the trouble to make it look like bronze is beyond me. So, there is no oil on that bushing and, adding oil to it only makes it stick and not downshift when slowing to a stop...you get stuck in high gear. I even tried high temp grease on one and...same thing...it just got hung up all the time. I polish the insides of my variator so the Dr. Pulley sliders move as easily as possible. I hear some use graphite from a pencil but then other say not to. I have never tried that. The polishing works really well. Bill EDIT: The above only applies to the Chinese variators...there may be indeed some other brands that do come with the real oil impregnated bronze bushings...I have not seen one but, it does not mean they are not out there. |
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Post by tocoo on Jul 5, 2018 23:03:30 GMT -5
My variator is stock and nothing in it is attracted to a magnet. THe rollers are 5g in weight, 15,89mm OD, 10,20mm ID and 13,05mm in height. Those rollers are attracted to magnet. THey have a green outline on one side. THey fit perfectly in the ramps, no room at all. The silver cylinder on the crank shaft is indeed attracted to magnet. Are you saying that the bronze bushing like here is removable? Mine does not seem to be removable  First I will try without the greasing this bronze bushing. |
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Post by tocoo on Jul 6, 2018 0:08:54 GMT -5
I put back everything without any grease or oil anywhere and the friction is still here. I will try to put a thin coat of silicone oil on the bronze bushin.
SHould there be a bit of oil also on the inside of the big silver spindle ?
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Post by Happypancake! on Jul 6, 2018 5:04:46 GMT -5
Is that a polini? Can u take a pic of the other side of the variator?
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 6, 2018 9:14:28 GMT -5
My variator is stock and nothing in it is attracted to a magnet. THe rollers are 5g in weight, 15,89mm OD, 10,20mm ID and 13,05mm in height. Those rollers are attracted to magnet. THey have a green outline on one side. THey fit perfectly in the ramps, no room at all. The silver cylinder on the crank shaft is indeed attracted to magnet. Are you saying that the bronze bushing like here is removable? Mine does not seem to be removable First I will try without the greasing this bronze bushing. Here is Brent's video on replacing the variator steel bushing. If you checked yours with a magnet and there is no attraction then it is not steel. As I posted above, it may be just the Chinese variator bushings that are steel and made to look like bronze. Bill |
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Post by tocoo on Jul 6, 2018 12:11:16 GMT -5
 this is the stock variator on the kisbee. I think I will start with putting graphite on the rollers with a pencil, to avoid the problems with being stuck in high gears |
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Post by tocoo on Jul 7, 2018 10:34:56 GMT -5
On the rollers, I applied graphite from a ''2B'' pencil and it changes nothing. Sometimes the sound is barely audible, sometimes it is very audible.
Is it time to put a little bit of silicone oil on the bronze bushing and the silver bore ? To avoid putting too much oil, i would first put theoil on my finger, then spread the oil on the metals.
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Post by tocoo on Jul 7, 2018 12:51:43 GMT -5
also, I forgot which way the rollers go in the ramps, should I only be consistent over all 6 rollers or does the way they are laid really matter?
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PirateLabs
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 296
Location: Bowling Green, KY
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Post by PirateLabs on Jul 7, 2018 16:24:23 GMT -5
On the rollers, I applied graphite from a ''2B'' pencil and it changes nothing. Sometimes the sound is barely audible, sometimes it is very audible. Is it time to put a little bit of silicone oil on the bronze bushing and the silver bore ? To avoid putting too much oil, i would first put theoil on my finger, then spread the oil on the metals. I would not do that. I once added just a tiny bit of high temperature grease to that same area and...all of as sudden, my scoot would not down shift at all. I was starting out in like 3rd gear from a stop no matter what I did. Others may have different opinions but, I just cleaned everything up very well in my variator and, I polished the ramps and, I also polished the O.D. of that silver steel bushing that goes on the crankshaft. I made everything as clean and smooth as possible and...it has shifted well ever since. No more issues. Just about anything you put in there to lubricate will get burned on and cause even more sticking problems due to all of the heat in that area as well as it will be like glue for all of those small bits of rubber from your belt and it will collect them, and dirt, and gum up the works. Bill |
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Post by tocoo on Jul 8, 2018 1:13:47 GMT -5
I applied silicone oil on the inside of the silver bore and the inside of the bronze bushing, but the sound is still here. I sprayed my finger with the oil, then I applied my finger on the metal, then I use a clean finger to remove excess of oil.
There is no sound at 5200 RPM, the sound still starts at 6000 RPM.
Perhaps it comes from the belt, or the clutch or the gear box?
I will change th eoil of the gearbox soon, because mechanics did not change the oil since I bought it in 2014 [he did not charge me for it, so I believe he did not change it], whereas it is clearly mentioned that this oil must be changed at 500km, at 2500km and 5000km
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Post by GrumpyUnk on Jul 8, 2018 11:18:39 GMT -5
Most sounds that are rpm variable are caused by vibration and possibly harmonics, not lubrication or lack thereof.
If the picture of the variator and weights/rollers is of your machine, I'd take a close look at the weight of each. It appears to me that 5 are sort of thick, and ONE is sort of thin. That would cause vibration due to imbalance.
If you 'mix and match' your weights, do so in groups of 3, and alternate the weights from slot to slot. That should avoid imbalance and subsequent vibration.
You might take the rollers/sliders and weigh them on a postal scale to verify that they are close to each other in weight. Could be they are off, but when originally assembled, they just happened to balance out. Or not.
tom
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Post by snaker on Jul 8, 2018 12:23:45 GMT -5
Kinda hard to tell what a fiction sound for one person would mean to another but keep in mind that the two pully's movable sheaves don't move all that much. The drive pulley moves maybe about 1" and the driven moves about 1 1/2". And that is throughout the full range/time of shifting.
The driven pulley bearings should be ruled out because you say the problem is above 5000 rpm and those bearings would not be spinning at that point.
If the sound could be a longer dragging noise, you should look over your belt closely for signs of rubbing. Don't rule out the chance that the sound may be from another area and have nothing to do with the previous service work.
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