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Post by niz76 on Jul 1, 2015 0:03:05 GMT -5
Usually when it soft seizes the piston and rings expand from heat/lack of lubrication/both and will temporarily seize in the cylinder. If it's a mild soft seize the scoot will usually start right back up after a few minutes of cooling down (shrinking) and you might get lucky with a few mild scratches in the cylinder. You'll know a full blown seize because you usually can't even budge the kickstarter (I know you don't have one) or e-start it. There's no way you'd be able to turn the crank by hand by turning the fan.
If it was a soft seize and the piston is now moving freely in the cylinder after cooling off it's possible that it was bad enough to really damage the cylinder and/or piston and now it won't have enough compression to start...
I've been through a handful of soft seizes and one real bad 500 degree piston-melting seize and never once encountered any problems with spark- that's a totally separate issue...
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Post by Elektrey on Jul 1, 2015 0:11:24 GMT -5
Usually when it soft seizes the piston and rings expand from heat/lack of lubrication/both and will temporarily seize in the cylinder. If it's a mild soft seize the scoot will usually start right back up after a few minutes of cooling down (shrinking) and you might get lucky with a few mild scratches in the cylinder. You'll know a full blown seize because you usually can't even budge the kickstarter (I know you don't have one) or e-start it. There's no way you'd be able to turn the crank by hand by turning the fan. If it was a soft seize and the piston is now moving freely in the cylinder after cooling off it's possible that it was bad enough to really damage the cylinder and/or piston and now it won't have enough compression to start... I've been through a handful of soft seizes and one real bad 500 degree piston-melting seize and never once encountered any problems with spark- that's a totally separate issue... yeah the e start worked immediately after I pulled off, I have footage to prove it! (love this camera lol) I tried again when I got home, which was about 13 minutes after (timestamp from the camera!) so I would think it would have cooled off. So my logic sound right then? no start: loss of compression from a seize start: stator overheated and lost spark because at this moment I'm still not sure what happened, everything seems to be in working order... Ok I checked and I started it about 20 seconds after it died and you can hear the engine turning over. Here's the rest of the clip I posted earlier. |
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Post by niz76 on Jul 1, 2015 0:21:17 GMT -5
I've never heard of a stator overheating and losing spark... so maybe;
no start: loss of compression from a seize or no spark or no fuel or bad fuel or clogged jet or timing off somehow or bad CDI or bad plug or bad coil or etc etc etc...
Start: Mild soft seize or some other freak occurance...
I watched the vid but there's not much to explain why it just suddenly shut off- just looks like you coasted to a stop. Probably wasn't a soft seize at all- seems more electrical related...
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Post by Elektrey on Jul 1, 2015 0:25:25 GMT -5
I've never heard of a stator overheating and losing spark... so maybe; no start: loss of compression from a seize or no spark or no fuel or bad fuel or clogged jet or timing off somehow or bad CDI or bad plug or bad coil or etc etc etc... Start: Mild soft seize or some other freak occurance... I watched the vid but there's not much to explain why it just suddenly shut off- just looks like you coasted to a stop. Probably wasn't a soft seize at all- seems more electrical related... ok thanks I value your opinion, I have no idea what a seize looks like. yeah the stator sort of rubbed against the flywheel. I didn't think it would be a problem, but I guess after a long ride it accumulates heat and the copper coilings probably change resistivity causing no spark. that or something else to do with heat. I've got spark now. Fuel is good just refilled today. could be bad CDI that's very true, I know there is a recall for the CDI I have, but I have never heard of anyone actually breaking down due to the CDI, i've always thought it was a way to limit them after the fact when they were released. |
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Post by niz76 on Jul 1, 2015 0:25:49 GMT -5
Usually when it soft seizes the piston and rings expand from heat/lack of lubrication/both and will temporarily seize in the cylinder. If it's a mild soft seize the scoot will usually start right back up after a few minutes of cooling down (shrinking) and you might get lucky with a few mild scratches in the cylinder. You'll know a full blown seize because you usually can't even budge the kickstarter (I know you don't have one) or e-start it. There's no way you'd be able to turn the crank by hand by turning the fan. If it was a soft seize and the piston is now moving freely in the cylinder after cooling off it's possible that it was bad enough to really damage the cylinder and/or piston and now it won't have enough compression to start... I've been through a handful of soft seizes and one real bad 500 degree piston-melting seize and never once encountered any problems with spark- that's a totally separate issue... yeah the e start worked immediately after I pulled off, I have footage to prove it! (love this camera lol) I tried again when I got home, which was about 13 minutes after (timestamp from the camera!) so I would think it would have cooled off. So my logic sound right then? no start: loss of compression from a seize start: stator overheated and lost spark because at this moment I'm still not sure what happened, everything seems to be in working order... Ok I checked and I started it about 20 seconds after it died and you can hear the engine turning over. Here's the rest of the clip I posted earlier. So you started the scoot 20 seconds later? Or you hit the e-start button and turned it over 20 seconds later? Again, the vid doesn't tell much of a story- just that you're battery isn't dead and the e-start works lol. It's a good sign that the engine at least turned over that soon- if it was a soft seize it was mild, but it really seems more of an electrical issue... |
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Post by Elektrey on Jul 1, 2015 0:28:33 GMT -5
So you started the scoot 20 seconds later? Or you hit the e-start button and turned it over 20 seconds later? Again, the vid doesn't tell much of a story- just that you're battery isn't dead and the e-start works lol. It's a good sign that the engine at least turned over that soon- if it was a soft seize it was mild, but it really seems more of an electrical issue... 20 seconds after it died I got the e-start to turn over the engine. It hasn't been started yet. I think it is electrical. I thought at first it was the plug cap, because it was like halfway on. would explain the noise I was hearing too. popped the cap back on and tried to start it at home but nothing. |
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Post by niz76 on Jul 1, 2015 0:32:02 GMT -5
If you have spark that's good- at least you can cross off most of the electrical gremlins from your troubleshooting list. On a few soft seizes sometimes I notice I'm losing a little power, then a few seconds later I've heard a weird kinda zzziiiiipp noise- then dead. The scoot usually instantly dies (all stator powered items instantly shut off) I assume that last zzziiipp noise is the piston expanding to where it's finally just to big to freely move in the cylinder and the last little noise you hear. Did I hear that sound in the video??
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Post by Elektrey on Jul 1, 2015 0:35:50 GMT -5
If you have spark that's good- at least you can cross off most of the electrical gremlins from your troubleshooting list. On a few soft seizes sometimes I notice I'm losing a little power, then a few seconds later I've heard a weird kinda zzziiiiipp noise- then dead. The scoot usually instantly dies (all stator powered items instantly shut off) I assume that last zzziiipp noise is the piston expanding to where it's finally just to big to freely move in the cylinder and the last little noise you hear. Did I hear that sound in the video?? No this noise that I mention is more of like the sound wind makes when it clips something with rough edges if that make sense. I couldn't hear it WOT, but when I let off the throttle a bit it became noticeable. It was doing it the whole way and happened once the bike was warmed up a bit. Yeah I thought I read that you lose power before it seizes, so I always try to look for that. Did not feel that at all, it really caught me off guard. |
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Post by niz76 on Jul 1, 2015 0:44:17 GMT -5
Hmm.. well I'm interested to see what u find!
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Post by Elektrey on Jul 1, 2015 0:47:56 GMT -5
Hmm.. well I'm interested to see what u find! Me too. Thanks for your help! |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jul 1, 2015 6:51:38 GMT -5
pulled over and tried to start it but the starter just turned, no spark no RPM shown on the gauge. This is the part that makes me think you need to be looking to the stator. Unfortunately the tach can't be seen when it died in the video, but if you're sure it went from cruise RPM directly to 0 then something at least momentarily failed in the ignition. Nothing seemed harsh enough in that vid to make me think the piston instantly stopped in the bore to make the tach quit. What makes me a bit unsure is that your gauge is moving when you go to restart it in the next vid so at that point you should have at least had some signal headed to the coil and tach. |
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Post by 190mech on Jul 1, 2015 8:21:29 GMT -5
It wouldnt be a big job to snag off the head and take a peek at the bore..
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Post by Elektrey on Jul 1, 2015 10:55:10 GMT -5
pulled over and tried to start it but the starter just turned, no spark no RPM shown on the gauge. This is the part that makes me think you need to be looking to the stator. Unfortunately the tach can't be seen when it died in the video, but if you're sure it went from cruise RPM directly to 0 then something at least momentarily failed in the ignition. Nothing seemed harsh enough in that vid to make me think the piston instantly stopped in the bore to make the tach quit. What makes me a bit unsure is that your gauge is moving when you go to restart it in the next vid so at that point you should have at least had some signal headed to the coil and tach. well when I say that I mean it was as if I hit the killswitch, the RPM needle just plummeted as if it lost signal (spark). It won't start now. I'm getting spark, but I think it's rather weak compared to when I first had spark. Would that cause something like this? Fan felt normal resistance to turn, as if it had compression. didn't feel loose or anything. Could the CDI cause something like this maybe? |
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Post by 90GTVert on Jul 1, 2015 12:46:08 GMT -5
No start like that could be caused by different things. Is the spark blue/white and consistent? If it's orange looking you have a weak spark for sure. Is the plug wet or dry after trying to start?
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Post by Elektrey on Jul 1, 2015 13:26:35 GMT -5
No start like that could be caused by different things. Is the spark blue/white and consistent? If it's orange looking you have a weak spark for sure. Is the plug wet or dry after trying to start? The spark is blue, I think it should be strong enough to start. I've temporarily lost my spark plug wrench so I can't check that right now but I will when I find it again. I'm thinking if it's not wet it could be something related to the intake/carb? What would cause the scooter to die like that? surely if the carb got clogged up or something clogged the intake it wouldn't die like that would it? Maybe it ate a reed? |
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