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Post by oldgeek on Feb 23, 2015 7:23:38 GMT -5
Strange results on some of the setups IMO. Also I have at least 4mm on the variator that is unused when it is fully closed. Will a wider belt help? The specs for the Malossi 6111108 belt I am using is 816 x 17.5 x 30 They have a 818 x 18 x 30 belt (6113191) but I would hate to buy a $40 belt if it does not help. Put the two halves of the front pulley together and measure the gap near the outer edges or just kinda "test fit" the belt you're using in there to see if it even could be squeezed that far up. Thanks for all of the details! If I am understanding you correctly I did that except for measuring the width when the pulley is fully closed. I took the weights out and held the pulley closed with the belt in it. There is a gap of 4-5mm left on the variator. The only ways that I can think of to use the rest of it are a wider belt and or to shave the pulley centers so they will close farther. I don't think shaving the pulleys will help much, they already have large flat areas in the center pretty much. So that leaves me looking for a wider belt. How much wider I don't know. I will measure the gap as you suggest, and go from there. The angle of the belt has me thinking also. I think a stock BWS 100 belt is 757 x 17.3 x 28. Based on that, I would think the BWS 100 stuff I have would also be made for 28° belts. I wonder how much the 30° Malossi belt is contributing to the problem, would I be better off trying to find a 28° belt for this setup? |
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Post by 90GTVert on Feb 23, 2015 9:03:20 GMT -5
I don't know that the 2° would make much difference, but it wouldn't hurt to look for a 28° if you go shopping for a new belt. At least if it matches the angles of the drive faces better you should get more contact area for less chance of belt slip.
Before going too much wider you'd want to see what the rear pulley can handle. Getting out to the edge of the front pulley may not do you any good if it's too wide to make it near the center of the rear pulley.
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Post by oldgeek on Feb 23, 2015 14:09:36 GMT -5
I don't know that the 2° would make much difference, but it wouldn't hurt to look for a 28° if you go shopping for a new belt. At least if it matches the angles of the drive faces better you should get more contact area for less chance of belt slip. Before going too much wider you'd want to see what the rear pulley can handle. Getting out to the edge of the front pulley may not do you any good if it's too wide to make it near the center of the rear pulley. I made a bunch of checks, and measurements while I was changing the setup. I used an 18mm wide by 30 belt I have that is too short to use, just to see how it fits in the variator. It gets me halfway to using all of what I am not yet using of the variator pulley. I also checked the rear pulley, and a belt up to about 18.5mm wide possibly even 19mm should still make all the way to the inside of it. The question is now how long of a belt do I need? I feel I need a belt longer than the Malossi I am using that is 816mm, but I don't know for sure. The latest setup using the 1500 yellow Autotech contra spring, middle groove on the rear pulley/3x5 & 3x9 rollers = 42 grams total. It is about 48° and misting rain and windy during this test run. I said screw it, and rode down the bypass for about 1 mile where I never ride. Traffic was heavy but moving fast. I got it up to 57.6 mph @ 8700 - 8800rpm on the way down, and around 55mph on the way back. The crosswind was hell on that short stretch due to the runway nearby. I may get a mile or two more with the right belt, but I think if it is going to hit 60mph the gears are going to have to be changed. I double checked, and the final ratio at the wheel is 11:1 with these 100/60 - 12" tires. I have never messed with gearing before, so what gears should I get for this short case? |
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Post by 90GTVert on Feb 23, 2015 16:00:11 GMT -5
Perhaps this could be of some use trying to figure out a belt length : www.durabelt.com/beltlengthcalculator.phpSome use string to figure it out. I'd check the string measurements for current travel against current belt length to get an idea if I were on the right path using that method. Prob check the sorta same way if using the calculator. Put in the effective dimensions of the pulleys based on current travel and make sure you're getting something close to the current belt size. Mine will over rev and pull the last MPH. For example T2 now is really peaked by 9000RPM, but it'll rev to 9500 when it runs out of CVT and keep picking up MPH. The Venus with the same gears you seem to have and very similar tire size would peak in the upper 8000 to 9000RPM range, but pull a bit more RPM to make it over 60MPH. When I had a Hoca CVT before the OR on T1 it would do 72MPH at 12,000RPM or so. Then I put the OR on and it didn't seem to have to power to push past the peak power RPM and it actually acts a little less likely to reach the last couple of MPH when it's just sitting at 10,500 or so in a higher CVT ratio. You and nelson have both had problems getting the same or better MPH from OR CVT components and both of you seem to have no ability to pass your peak power RPM from the sound of the posts. Just thinking perhaps this is partially to blame. Instead of using maybe a little less power but at higher revs to spin the rear wheel faster, the CVT keeps shifting into a higher ratio that would be a little harder to pull. I may be way off on this thinking, just putting it out there. Correct me if I'm wrong and you are over revving at the end of your speed runs. |
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Post by oldgeek on Feb 23, 2015 17:53:30 GMT -5
This stuff is hard to understand sometimes! When I had the Hoca variator installed along with the stock rear pulley, I was around 57mph, @ 9500 rpm. ........Instead of using maybe a little less power but at higher revs to spin the rear wheel faster, the CVT keeps shifting into a higher ratio that would be a little harder to pull. I may be way off on this thinking, just putting it out there. Correct me if I'm wrong and you are over revving at the end of your speed runs. I have read this multiple times, and I think it is starting to sink in. With the latest setup, I am getting around 57mph @ 8700 - 8800rpm. It seems to struggle to maintain speed and the revs drop a bit. I noticed with some of the other setups I posted that it was getting into a high gear way too soon. Lighter rollers got the revs up a little, but then it seemed to not have enough weight to push into a higher gear, and top speed suffered. So what you are saying is starting to make sense. How to fix it? Would a stiffer contra spring, coupled with heavier weights help? Another thought. I have been trying to get full travel from the BWS 100 variator, possibly I am getting too much travel, and I am never going to have enough power with this setup to pull right. Maybe I should limit the max closing of the BWS 100 variator. I also plan to try the Hoca variator with the BWS 100 rear pulley at some point. I do believe the BWS 100 rear pulley can open just a tad farther than the stock one does, and that alone could help top end all by itself. The BWS 100 variator is considerably larger in diameter than even the Malossi variator. Possibly the BWS 100 variator is just too large to work with the power available on this build. We need more power!! should have gone bigger  |
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Post by 90GTVert on Feb 23, 2015 19:10:13 GMT -5
Not sure if it'll do what you want, but it shouldn't take too long to try a different spring and weight combo. Maybe something simple like adding an extra 0.5 or 1mm of spacing to the boss could help. Could be that you get the best results with a different pulley combo.
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Post by nelson on Feb 23, 2015 19:26:03 GMT -5
Thanks for tagging me guys!
Oldgeek, I have all but pulled my hair out with the malossi or. While I have better acceleration and smoother acceleration the top speed isnt as good as the hoca vari with stock rear pulley. I had 6g rollers and a 1k contra and was running in the mid 60 mph range(was still shifting to about 9500 rpm then would gear out about 10500). When I went to the or I had to go up to 8g sliders for A max speed around 53-55. I am using a stock gy6 spring and havent changed it as of yet. What I have noticed with the or. Take off is great. Really good actually. mid range is good. Now when I run it up to 9500 it will just rev right on to 10500 without picking up any mph. If I get off it and let the belt do whatever the hell it does it will go back down to 9k and then seems like it wants to pull up to a higher speed. Either way I have yet to be satisfied with it. When I bought it I was warned by gary at g force that the or was for higher Revving engines. I am running 8.3:1 gears so I would say dont waste your time with the gearing. I recently toasted a wrist pin bearing so im waiting on a hoca 54 mm cylinder. Im very close to ditching the or and running it on my 70.
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Post by 190mech on Feb 23, 2015 19:46:03 GMT -5
I think (as said before) the 90cc+ motors dont have enough transfer duct area to allow the engine to make power after 10,500 RPM's.Its a 'port governor' for these builds,,a nice 70cc will rev waay past that allowing the CVT system to do its thing at the higher peak..I gotta say the BWS100 motor is really transfer duct challenged also,so Id think the BWS stuff oughta work on the 90 stuff..We just gotta get Santa to cast us up some cheap iron 54mm kits with massive 'teacup handle' transfer ducts and good flowing triple Ex ports,,then we'd be getting some reckless driving tickets!!  |
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Post by nelson on Feb 23, 2015 20:09:35 GMT -5
Yes 190!!!
I was looking back in my build thread. When I was running a 90 main in the fall I was around 68 mph With the hoca. Then I went up a bit on the main due to cold weather and went to 63 mph. Then put the or on and got a lot slower top speed. 190, I realize what you are saying about the rev max of 10500 bucks with my old hoca vari it would pull up to 9500 and then slowly creep up in mph until a bit past 10k
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Post by 190mech on Feb 23, 2015 20:35:45 GMT -5
Nelson,The Hoca likely has a better designed variator ramp for lower rev stuff(like us) than the high end vari parts..
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Post by nelson on Feb 23, 2015 20:46:42 GMT -5
Nelson,The Hoca likely has a better designed variator ramp for lower rev stuff(like us) than the high end vari parts.. thanks for that information! An expensive lesson on my part ,I agree the hoca is hard to beat on the 90 plus low rev builds. OLdgeek, at you still running the autotech cylinder with stock pipe? |
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Post by oldgeek on Feb 23, 2015 22:51:31 GMT -5
Thanks for tagging me guys! Oldgeek, I have all but pulled my hair out with the malossi or. While I have better acceleration and smoother acceleration the top speed isnt as good as the hoca vari with stock rear pulley. I had 6g rollers and a 1k contra and was running in the mid 60 mph range(was still shifting to about 9500 rpm then would gear out about 10500). When I went to the or I had to go up to 8g sliders for A max speed around 53-55. I am using a stock gy6 spring and havent changed it as of yet. What I have noticed with the or. Take off is great. Really good actually. mid range is good. Now when I run it up to 9500 it will just rev right on to 10500 without picking up any mph. If I get off it and let the belt do whatever the hell it does it will go back down to 9k and then seems like it wants to pull up to a higher speed. Either way I have yet to be satisfied with it. When I bought it I was warned by gary at g force that the or was for higher Revving engines. I am running 8.3:1 gears so I would say dont waste your time with the gearing. I recently toasted a wrist pin bearing so im waiting on a hoca 54 mm cylinder. Im very close to ditching the or and running it on my 70. I should have paid attention to your thread more, It would have saved me trouble! Thanks for the tip about the gears because that was next. I am going to fiddle with this OR a while longer, I have some setups I want to try, and then likely switch back to a Hoca. I am using the autotech 54mm cylinder and a technigas RSII pipe, at the moment. |
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Post by oldgeek on Feb 23, 2015 22:59:01 GMT -5
.I gotta say the BWS100 motor is really transfer duct challenged also,so Id think the BWS stuff oughta work on the 90 stuff..We just gotta get Santa to cast us up some cheap iron 54mm kits with massive 'teacup handle' transfer ducts and good flowing triple Ex ports,,then we'd be getting some reckless driving tickets!! That is what I was thinking about BWS 100 stuff, I have a 99cc so it should work? And as far as 54mm kits go, why dont you design us a good one , we will bypass santa, and go straight to china! LoL! JK |
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Post by oldgeek on Feb 23, 2015 23:44:31 GMT -5
I got over to the warehouse tonight to try some more OR setups. I started reading some posts made earlier in this thread and realized I was likely wasting time working on this OR setup for the reasons discussed in this post.
I decided what the hell, I would try a couple more setups before throwing in the towel. I wanted to try a stiff contra spring, and heaver rollers. I left the red Malossi spring (2000?) at home by accident, so I grabbed a 1500 short spring I had at the warehouse, and put a BB base on it to stiffen it up even more. I put 3x5 & 3x10 rollers in for 45 grams total. I decided to go for a short test ride. The launch is very strong and it pulls up to speed quick. Top speed was 54.8mph and I was not fully peaked. I could not see the tach in the dark, but it sounded like 9K at least. It has that hard launch like you can get with the Hoca setup now. I also moved to the steepest groove in the rear pulley which should delay it going into top gear the longest if I am thinking right. I would like to try some heavier rollers, and possibly even a stiffer spring before I give up for sure.
I likely wont be doing any tuning for a while due to the weather. It is 37° here now, but we may see the rare light snow in the morning, then freezing temps the rest of the week.
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Post by nelson on Feb 24, 2015 0:38:52 GMT -5
Does the autotech ha've the extra exhaust ports? If not have you done any port work? What is your compression ration, like when kicking it over?I was at 175psi cold
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