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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 15, 2022 4:57:50 GMT -5
I found one person saying that controller will fix issues with a pipe. Couldn't tell if that was from experience or they just saw it too. I rarely have much luck finding in depth info for this thing. I guess the TMAX isn't popular enough. It's probably out there somewhere if you search in the right language and know what parts are commonly called in that language, because I know they're much more popular and still selling in other countries. You need people that actually share info though, and in English I mostly get my own vids and a couple of ScooterSwapShop vids and then some random forum postings or pretty much nothing other than links to parts depending on what it is. I skimmed one SSS vid with a pipe install, but no mention of issues. I'm gonna see if I can find others from them that I'm sure I've seen on a TMAX and check those. I'll probably end up ordering that controller.
EDIT : Been skimming vids for 30 minutes or so. Brandon from SSS said he's gonna order a DynoJet tuner for his TMAX with a pipe and CVT stuff, but didn't mention any reason for it. He also said they make around 32 to the wheel stock and about 40 with the pipe he has. Dynoed it to show the 40HP after, but no before. I'd have to bet there's not a chance it did 32 stock and then 40 due to exhaust unless there's some restriction in the newer models that I'm unaware of... but big scoots aren't generally restricted so I'm assuming sales pitch.
I saw shops with 50 mufflers around and other pro shops, amateurs, and between and didn't see anyone installing any controller. One shop plugged in a newer model to a laptop but it looked like monitoring sensors more than tuning and it was brief and in another language.
I guess the next step is to check manufacturer pages, but I doubt that they say anything beyond tuning may be required with their pipes if they say anything at all.
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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 15, 2022 6:36:08 GMT -5
I checked Malossi's pipe info and instructions, since they make the o2 controller, thinking maybe they'd try to sell that part in their info. Nope. No mention.
A company called Magnum Tuning makes o2 simulators that replace the o2 totally, but they mostly seem to claim it gets rid of check engine lights and fools the computer into thinking emission is normal.
Came across the Malossi unit on RRD, who often gives better descriptions than most...
"Here we present the MALOSSI TC UNIT O2 lambda sensor controller emulator! This emulator is used to deceive the lambda probe to improve its afr (air / fuel mixture), it would be even more ideal if it is installed with an exhaust line without catalyst and a sport air filter as well as a variator ! This is similar to engine reprogramming without modifying the ignition curve but only the injection curve. Clearly, you will have understood this little box of technology will improve the AFR of your machine and the engine performance will be greatly improved!"
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Post by Lucass2T on Oct 15, 2022 9:08:52 GMT -5
Be warned if you do choose to order anyhting from RRD...
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Post by bigmatthew86 on Oct 15, 2022 9:31:51 GMT -5
A programmable tuner would be the way to go but for the price I think I’d try the Malossi thing. I just put a kit on my Zuma 125 without tuning. The work around is they give you a larger injector.
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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 15, 2022 9:45:42 GMT -5
Be warned if you do choose to order anyhting from RRD... I'm not ordering there, but they do have more info in descriptions than most places. I'm going to order the o2 controller. Just figuring out where. ScooterTuning is who I prefer, but they have to order. ScooterPartsCo has it. I'll have to go over results, but it's not faster (or at least not much different) with the dB killer in. Didn't expect it to be, but had to check. It does make it a reasonable exhaust. It's much quieter and doesn't have as deep and aggressive of a sound. After hearing it idle and free rev, I thought I gotta take this back out. Riding, it's still pretty loud. I dunno. I think it's more fun without the dB killer, but it may get too much attention and I can at least hear other things with the dB killer in. For example, I was sitting right in front of the garage door where normally I hear the motor and clanks as it closes. I had to turn around to see if it was closing or not yesterday because I couldn't hear it at all. Yoshi didn't punch out the hole for the screw to hold the insert into the pipe so I had to hammer and punch that. It bent out started to tear the pipe on the other end so I ended up knocking it around back and forth till it snapped off so it didn't make a bigger hole. Then I had to file it because it had 2 points sticking up. Had a rag in the pipe and vacuumed before removing the rag. The insert changed from black to tan/gold/bronze... something like that... after 1 ride.   Getting ready to swap to 16g sliders after it cools. You can see the pipe changing colors, but it still looks good so far. I can get the CVT cover off now without hitting the pipe anymore.  |
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sinfull
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 413
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Post by sinfull on Oct 16, 2022 0:53:28 GMT -5
Stock pipe read the resistance of the o2 sensor, new pipe read the resistance, if it is a change in voltage run a resistor as close as you can get to the Stock reading.
Assuming you are reading your plugs and are happy with the stock settings. You should be able to achieve the stock reading with a resistance. All the o2 emulator are anyway is just a resistor.
We had to do that before there were flash ecu, removing the cat would set off cel, resistance the 2nd o2 and get rid of the cel and the limp mode.
Stock tmax pipe probably has a cat of some kind, so narrow band stock o2 is probably not used to the flow and higher or lower resistance of the pipe, tune it out and see if you can get rid of the stumble you are having.
Way more useful ways to tune than buying a fancy resistor called a emulator.
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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 16, 2022 11:59:33 GMT -5
Interesting. I don't really know what's in the o2 controller/emulator. Never really thought about the idea of adjusting voltage to match stock with a resistor, and didn't know it was a thing for tuning. I've only ever heard of mods to get rid of check engine lights and errors on stuff with downstream/after-cat o2 sensors. The TMAX has 1 sensor, upstream/pre-cat. It's just ahead of the big stock muffler and I have to assume there's a cat in there since it's just plain pipe before the muffler. No cat in the Yoshi.
I'm not really sure what I want to do anymore. I do want to get rid of the popping and stumbling. I don't care about the popping on decel, but I don't like to hear a bunch of little pops as I'm just trying to cruise through town because it's clearly not right. It's always popped on decel, it's just louder now but doesn't really seem more severe. I guess the resistor or o2 controller/emulator would be the way to cure this since I assume it's closed loop at these low throttle positions.
I'd also like to see what happens if it had more fuel for open loop operation when it matters most for performance. The o2 mods shouldn't do that. It would need a fuel controller of some sort. At this point, it's similar or slower with the aftermarket pipe. To ride it, it feels prob a little faster in some sense because it's loud, but results show that it's not. So would it do anything with the right map?
The right map seems like a challenge. The only map for the ~$450 Power Commander is for a stock TMAX. An R1 or something would have lots of options for different mods. Not the TMAX. If they actually had maps, it can control timing and fuel so there would be more potential for benefit. There's a Power Commander fuel controller that they're trying to get rid of for $200 now. The full featured PC seems to be discontinued, so I guess it's just that no one cares about a TMAX 500. Anyway, the controller allows selection of up to 10 maps, but I think it only has 1 for a stock bike on it. Then you can use a PC prog to dial it in, or it has low mid and high dials to adjust fuel up 10% at a time above whatever the current map has. The other option is a Malossi Force Master CDI for about $300. It has 4 maps for a TMAX pre-loaded and all are for modified setups. One is for a Malossi exhaust and filter on an otherwise stock engine then others add cams, a big bore or the combo of both. It has a plus or minus 20% dials labeled low, mid and high. Even though it's a CDI, I don't see anything about it changing timing. It does raise rev limit to 9400, but that's not useful to me. I've never hit the stock rev limiter.
It seems like the stuff that requires adjustment to the fuel curve could be tricky without a dyno, and that leaves only the Malossi unit with something that should be close out of the box. $200 seems like quite a deal though, for the DynoJet fuel controller. I'd basically be paying $100 for the benefit of Malossi's exhaust/filter map over the DynoJet. Then again, I could play with resistors or pay $100 and hope it just fixes the low throttle issues. Maybe it would pick up something just having a little extra fuel when holding RPM up at launch, but otherwise it shouldn't really do anything for my acceleration times. I assume they should cover the closed loop issues too, but I don't know if all of them do.
The problem is, I don't know if the maps do much either. Again, I can't find much about it. I found someone saying that a variator, exhaust and filter with a power commander provided power gains up to 60MPH. To me, that sounds like maybe it has power gains up to 60MPH because the variator is keeping RPM in the power when it wasn't before. It should gain after 60 if the mods are doing much for actual engine output.
If I don't do a tuner capable of changing maps, then I'll probably just get the Malossi o2 controller. I appreciate the info about dialing it in, but by the time I put the stock pipe back and try to measure it's voltage vs the Yoshi and fiddle to get the right result, I'll likely wish I just bought the controller. I turn everything into an ordeal. Just look at the pipe. Most just bolt it on and say it's loud so it's good to go or add a power commander or controller if they notice symptoms and call it done there. I'm doing test run after test run instead of just enjoying my loud scooter.
As far as the smartest move, I think putting the stock exhaust back would be it. I don't think it's gonna do anything really significant even with map changes. The problem is, it's kinda fun loud and now I don't want to go back.
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sinfull
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 413
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Post by sinfull on Oct 16, 2022 14:58:08 GMT -5
Best way to tune this bike is going to be by wide band. Run a wideband setup and then you can start to make your decisions.
Before re flash tuning for Efi, we had to get creative and manuly tune it by wideband. Early honda and import, really only had piggy back ecu which changed voltage from the o2 sensor.
Off subject but, with the wideband you could do your tuning with out the guess work. Never seen a 1 tune pre map that is perfect for everyone.
You have options, and could also work with fuel pressure and injectors.
Other things to check, with the popping, does tmax have a egr of some kind ?? Open egr usually can cause decell popping. Think gy6, if you don't block off stock valve cover tube, douch pops every where
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Post by 190mech on Oct 16, 2022 15:07:31 GMT -5
IAT (intake air temp) can be "adjusted" to think its -20F and it'll run richer,the service manual may have OHM values for checking the IAT,just put a fixed resistor in its place,also bumping up the fuel pressure may richen it up also..Car stuff here....
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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 16, 2022 18:57:14 GMT -5
I was just hoping not to get complicated. Be like everyone else and bolt stuff on instead of turning it into a project. I said the TMAX was gonna be a rider that I just left alone. lol If I get a tuner and wideband and try to figure out how to weld stainless (hear it has to be purged) then I will end up doing test runs for a month, playing with numbers in a table. At that point, there's too much involved/invested to not obsess over it. Now if I could just bolt something on and select a tune that seemed to work... I could call it close enough and ride off into the sunset. I dunno. Polini does make a fuel pressure regulator that changes pressure from 36 to 50psi (not adjustable). That seems excessive. I was used to small adjustments on old 5.0 Mustangs. Never got into resistors and stuff. An adjustable regulator and larger injectors (paired with MAF) took me from stock all the way to bored/stroked/heads/cam/intake with little fuss. No wideband or anything. Turn the set screw on the regulator and twist the distributor till it ran hard. Wasn't till boost and aftermarket engine control that everything got complicated and I got a wideband.
Quick clip. This is today. dB killer is back out. You can hear it sputter at low throttle going through one of the turns.
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sinfull
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 413
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Post by sinfull on Oct 16, 2022 19:59:40 GMT -5
Sounds good, I would not even worry about it then, if it isn't going to be anything but a straight runner then I would leave it alone too.
Just check the plugs and run it, the fuel injection is not going to get that far off tune to hurt the engine, atleast not from a pipe and a muffler. The efi is going to keep it as close to stoich as it can when it is reading the o2, factory map will never be anywhere near detonation when it is on the fuel map, so screw it, JUST SEND IT 😀
I agree about not letting it turn into a project. Besides it is just a really cool bike to have and ride, doesn't need to be a perfect tuned vehicle that spends more time in the garage than the streets.
If it does drive you crazy, then sell the really loud exhaust to someone who wants the headache and just get a different muffler for the bike and ride it stock, no where near as cool looking, but way cooler to ride than just a piece of garage art.
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Post by bigmatthew86 on Oct 16, 2022 20:30:08 GMT -5
Bolt on the emulator & roll. If you take it off without doing so you’ll always wonder. If you don’t get it & leave the pipe on you’ll never be happy. 100 bucks, just do it. No need to dyno it with a wideband that’s getting a little excessive unless you just really want to.
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sinfull
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 413
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Post by sinfull on Oct 16, 2022 22:49:28 GMT -5
Besides way more fun stuff to do with the tmax than obsess over a pipe 😄
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sinfull
Scoot Enthusiast
Posts: 413
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Post by sinfull on Oct 16, 2022 22:55:32 GMT -5
Besides way more fun stuff to do with the tmax than obsess over a pipe 😄  |
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Post by 90GTVert on Oct 17, 2022 10:55:59 GMT -5
Got a reply from my message on Friday to ScooterTuning about the o2 controller. Said it would take about a month to get, but mentioned that Malossi store has it in stock. I was gonna ask about the Malossi CDI and see if they could give me a price on it (discount for vids) but I'll probably just pay full price somewhere that it's in stock with whatever I go with.
I emailed DynoJet because their $200 (on sale) fuel controller says it includes an o2 optimizer where applicable. Doesn't say if it does specifically for the TMAX. I also emailed Malossi, because I'm not sure if their $300 CDI still requires the o2 controller or if that's built in. If both require an o2 controller anyway, it makes this easy. I'll just start with an o2 controller and hope that gets rid of part throttle issues without additional expense.
BTW, Malossi store is doing 20% off orders over 150€ till Halloween. Naturally they don't even list the CDI for my TMAX on their site. Seems like places are trying to get rid of TMAX 500 stuff.
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