Honda AF16 Stroker? Advice needed on build.

[hippo008]

I am looking to start a 2 stroke build sometime soon. I am going to purchase a Honda Elite SR which are easy to come by in my area. 

Before I purchase the scoot though, I want to plan out my build a little bit. I have no experience with these small 2T motors. Here is what I am looking for in my build

-Streetable. I want to ride this around town 20+ miles at a time.

-Somewhat fuel efficient in terms of ride time. I dont want to have to fill up every 20 minutes of ride time.

-Able to haul my 250lbs around and still be peppy

-45~MPH cruising(?) This is up in the air. I want to be able to safely ride on 40MPH roads with a little powerleft just in case I need to accelerate away.

-Not too maintenance heavy. A new set of rings and a new piston every couple thousand miles? No problem.

With these requirements in mind I have a few ideas. My initial build looks something like this. 
-Stock Ignition, Stock flywheel, Polini Corsa AC Cylinder, 52.4mm Stroker Crank, Scooter Tuning CA StrokerPipe, CVT Overrange kit if budget permits. 

I like this build because it will have a two ring cast setup which is known to be reliable. I also like this setup because I would keep the stock charging system and I would have a little more displacement to help pull me around being a heavy rider. By my math with a 47mm bore x 52.4mm stoke I should end up with 91cc~ of displacement which to me seems just about right. My concerns are that an air cooled cylinder would be prone to overheating and damaging the cylinder/cases. 

The other build I had in mind is a somewhat different route. The old adage "there is no replacement for displacement" comes to mind. 

-Taida 120cc Cylinder kit, Taida Stroker Crank, Stock ignition, Stock flywheel, Scooter Tuning CA StrokerPipe, CVT Overrange if budget permits.

I like this setup because I would be working within one brand and the aluminum cylinder I hope would be able to dissipate heat a lot better than a Polini Corsa. I also like that this is still a two ring setup and available in a LC variant for not too much more. I dont like this setup for essentially the same reasons I like it. I am not familiar with the Taida brand, I am not sure if they produce a quality product. I am not familiar with hard-chrome aluminum cylinders. I am concerned about the longevity and durability of an aluminum bore.

As for everything else like larger carbs, tools needed for case cutting, ect. I have all of that covered. I have a fairly well equipped shop with all the tools I need. 

Any advice?

AG-

[2stroked]

Y'all talking all this displacement, makes me wanna go find a dang Honda 2t... Have twin Honda Helixes, why not add a little brother?

[hippo008]

I’m not sure why but the AF16 and AF18E engines have a really large aftermarket community surrounding stroker engine builds. Horizontal Minarelli clones don’t even come close. All the big names make stroker cranks for the Minarelli horizontals but none of them are as common as the AF16\18E parts.

[oldgeek]

I dont think you need to do a stroker to achieve what you want. I have done several builds on a Kymco ZX, which uses Kymco's version of the AF16. A well tuned 48mm bore with a stock stroke crank and a simple pipe should do all that you have asked for.

I have also done a 50 x 52.6 stroker HERE It is quite involved IMO, but since you have the tools and ability you could do a stroker if you want.

I am not sure how well a Polini Corsa will match to a crank with a 52.6 stroke, I have never checked that. I can take a look at that tomorrow and let you know what I find.

I am not at all pleased with the quality of most of the parts available for the AF16 platform. I would love to be able to get some of the big bore, big name parts like they have for the minarelli's and Piaggio's

[hippo008]

Its funny you bring up the Kymco ZX50, I am actually considering getting a ZX instead of a 94' Elite SR. There are a few other Kymco's im considering that also have a cloned AF16 in them. Hondas are hot around here, usually $1200+ for a clean Elite SR. Kymco not so much, easy to find OK ZX's and Super8/9 AC for less than $1000.

I am considering a stroker only because of the extra oomf the added displacement will add. If that extra 20cc~ isnt really needed I will just skip it all together. Plus if those Taida parts arent very high quality I would rather avoid them too.

What kind of cylinder and pipe combination would I be looking at to achieve my goals? Im still suspect of aluminum hard-chrome cylinders. I am not sure how reliable and durable they are when compared to a traditional cast cylinder. The AF16 platform seems popular, im not so sure how it compares to the Minarelli/Jog platform for my needs.

Since I have not purchased a scoot yet its still possible for me to look into the Minarelli/Jog clone platform instead. There are quite a few Horizontal Minarelli scooters around here that sell for basically nothing. I could go with something like that if you dont recommend the AF16 engines. Cylinders and cranks are a lot more expensive but the parts pool is seemingly a lot deeper. Thoughts?

EDIT: I now have the oppertunity to pickup a TGB Key West (101S) with 2500miles for $500 or a Genuine Scooter Company Roughhouse with 500miles for $200. Both are totally different engines than the AF16 i originally planned to use. Any thoughts on either model?

[oldgeek]

Mar 27, 2020 20:49:22 GMT -5 hippo008 said:

Its funny you bring up the Kymco ZX50, I am actually considering getting a ZX instead of a 94' Elite SR. There are a few other Kymco's im considering that also have a cloned AF16 in them. Hondas are hot around here, usually $1200+ for a clean Elite SR. Kymco not so much, easy to find OK ZX's and Super8/9 AC for less than $1000.

I am considering a stroker only because of the extra oomf the added displacement will add. If that extra 20cc~ isnt really needed I will just skip it all together. Plus if those Taida parts arent very high quality I would rather avoid them too.

What kind of cylinder and pipe combination would I be looking at to achieve my goals? Im still suspect of aluminum hard-chrome cylinders. I am not sure how reliable and durable they are when compared to a traditional cast cylinder. The AF16 platform seems popular, im not so sure how it compares to the Minarelli/Jog platform for my needs.

Since I have not purchased a scoot yet its still possible for me to look into the Minarelli/Jog clone platform instead. There are quite a few Horizontal Minarelli scooters around here that sell for basically nothing. I could go with something like that if you dont recommend the AF16 engines. Cylinders and cranks are a lot more expensive but the parts pool is seemingly a lot deeper. Thoughts?

EDIT: I now have the oppertunity to pickup a TGB Key West (101S) with 2500miles for $500 or a Genuine Scooter Company Roughhouse with 500miles for $200. Both are totally different engines than the AF16 i originally planned to use. Any thoughts on either model?

I like the Kymco ZX, I have 3 of them. 2 of them have the body panels, the other is naked and is my favorite scoot of all time. I like the ZX over the Elites because they are bigger and have 12" wheels vs. 10" wheels like the elites. Under the body panels the 2 scoots share a very similar frame, however the ZX frame dimensions and tubing is slightly larger than the Elite frame. I am a bigger guy and the ZX being a bigger scoot has more room for me. The Kymco ZX also comes with a decent quality front end with disc brakes.

The Minarelli platform is also a great choice. Something like a Vento Triton, or a clone of it such as the Yamati Eurostrada. Both are larger 12" tire scoots and fairly roomy for the larger rider. I have had both but personal preferences have me choosing the Kymco ZX over the these scoots.

I dont know much about the Roughhouse or KeyWest, but from what I understand parts for them are limited.

As far as parts selection for the Kymco/Honda platform, something as cheap as this 48mm Taiwan and a V8 pipe from the same seller. Or as you said the Polini Corsa would be good. Scootertuning.CA has some house branded kits I would like to try. One thing I should mention is the gearbox on the Kymco ZX motor is nothing like the Honda AF16 motor, which means the gears for the AF16 will not fit the Kymco motor. I have searched high and low for aftermarket gears that fit the Kymco motor, but they seem nonexistent. The stock gearing in the Kymco ZX is fine for most everyone's needs.

[hippo008]

Ill take a look into the Vento Triton. There are usually a few Tritons for sale at any one time. There are also some ETon scooters for sale around here which seem popular.

The ZX I have my eye on seems pretty clean. Seeing as it has a larger frame and the larger more 12" wheels that seems like a winner to me. In terms of cylinders I was looking into the products scootertuning sells. The Taida stuff and their in house brand seem comperable but im not sure how the port timings work out when compared.

If I end up going the ZX/AF16 route exhuasts seem pretty limited. You mention the V8 pipe as being a good match. Should I look into expansion pipes as well or will a normal pioe be enough.

Thanks for all your help.

[oldgeek]

A normal pipe will do the job. I have one of these and like it although it is a bit loud for what it. You may want to source it from another dealer, RP has been slow to ship for me ,even if it says "in stock in the USA"LoL

[jbjhillbilly]

Love me some AF16, but for the money I’d grab the Roughhouse if it’s in good shape. 2t Zuma stuff fits the top end, and there are decent pipes around as well.

[hippo008]

So it looks like I may be totally changing direction. The Honda Elite SR I had my eye on was $900 and was sold pretty much right away. The TGB Keywest I ended up passing on because of parts availability. That leaves me with a E-Ton Beamer II for $200, or a Kymco ZX50 for $700.

The Beamer II seems nice, it was a project a guy started and never finished. It’s all in pieces but that’s okay with me, just a little extra work.

The ZX is essentially brand new. Very well taken care of and runs great. However for $700 that seems high for the price of the bike.

For the price of the Beamer I could do a Liquid Cooled conversion and get a higher end cylinder which would be really nice. Just for clarification Horizontal Minarelli’s can use a mechanical water pump cover right? They are a bolt on part as far as I am aware.

The ZX would be cheaper to modify and I could still go with a stroker setup.

Thoughts on either bike? I believe the Beamer II is a Taiwan Zuma clone. Should make parts availability great and easy to work on. The ZX has lots of merits already, some of the senior members here seem to love them.

AG-

[190mech]

The Eton is a well built scoot,its a Chinarelli long case with a 3rd bearing in the tranny(+) but has a 13.55 ratio(-),gear upgrades are limited(-),has a 10mm piston pin(-),but the Yam stuff fits(+),has DC CDI with limited CDI upgrades(-),the cases are thick enough to easily create a 90+cc motor(+)..

[oldgeek]

Thats too much for the ZX IMO. The beamer is a great scoot, and the right price.

[hippo008]

Mar 29, 2020 14:21:15 GMT -5 190mech said:

The Eton is a well built scoot,its a Chinarelli long case with a 3rd bearing in the tranny(+) but has a 13.55 ratio(-),gear upgrades are limited(-),has a 10mm piston pin(-),but the Yam stuff fits(+),has DC CDI with limited CDI upgrades(-),the cases are thick enough to easily create a 90+cc motor(+)..

I was looking into stroker Minarelli cranks and couldn’t find much. 2Fast and Top Preformance make them but that’s all I know of. Any cylinder crank combos I should look into?

[190mech]

The 90cc Polaris Sportsman quad and many others will fit with machine work,they make good low rev torque street motors,10,500 RPM is their limit..A hot 70cc build will out run it,but not out live it..Aftermarket parts for them are drying up.There are a few high end kits that will get you close to 100cc,but will be kinda race use only..

[hippo008]

Do you guys know if Zuma fairings would fit on the Eton Beamer 2?